Alistair Carmichael has a letter in today’s Guardian:
Steve Richards (Labour’s Brexit chaos is now so open it threatens to tear the party apart, 26 January) says Labour is hopelessly split on Europe. In fact, the Labour leadership’s position is all too clear: to cave in to the Conservative agenda of trashing our economy and threatening the opportunities of our young people.
Even Keir Starmer, Brexit spokesperson and billed as a voice of relative Labour sanity, suggests Britain should leave the single market and, even more quixotically, lauds Theresa May for avoiding a hard Brexit. In tabloid parlance, you couldn’t make it up. New studies suggest that Brexit could cost Britain up to £200bn over 15 years, while Tories are increasingly emboldened to argue that they will use the economic disaster of Brexit to shrink the state – causing massive cuts in public services.
Labour seems to be saying it will vote for article 50 even if all its amendments are defeated. Labour should get behind Liberal Democrat calls to vote against unless the people are given a say on the final deal. Labour needs to find its mettle and join with us to provide real opposition to the Conservative Brexit government, or we will have hard Brexit – and for that future generations will not forgive them.
Alistair Carmichael MP
Lib Dem member of Brexit select committee
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17 Comments
Maybe Alistair Carmichael should enquire about how his own colleagues are going to vote before accusing Labour MP’s.
Norman Lamb, Greg Mulholland and John Pugh all abstained in the last vote and apposed Tim Farron’s and the parties position.
Norman Lamb represents a constituency where 59% voted for leave, I can not see him doing anything that would be seen as trying to block brexit.
No doubt he will be in for some harsh critisim from the hard remainers within the party
Are Labour really going to let Mrs May have her own way on brexit ? I can her the shouts of triumph from Trump Towers !
Matt
We must respect mps who vote with their conscience on this or any issue, if their values are in keeping with those of the core of our philosophy and policy.
The mps you mention are very obvious exponents of good Liberal and , here , Liberal Democrat values. They should vote accordingly , for that is what Liberalism and Democracy means above all.
The day this or any of the parties seems more like a sect , or fan club, is when we know Liberalism, Liberal Democracy itself, are absent without, leave , no pun intended !
I’m not going to mandate ideological purity testing – that any LD MP who votes for A50 is a traitor or whatnot – but they’re clearly voting against the party as rebels if they do. The issue here is that Labour – the actual party – is backing Hard Brexit. That’s clearly the wrong thing to do.
Roger Roberts 30th Jan ’17 – 3:49pm………..Are Labour really going to let Mrs May have her own way on brexit ? I can her the shouts of triumph from Trump Towers !…….
My, you have good hearing…Labour (Corbyn) accepts that the electorate voted to ‘Leave’…He also accepts that, as it was a ‘Yes/No’ they did not vote on anything else…
Accepting the result means accepting the triggering of Article 50…What happens afterwards is still open to negotiation and Corbyn has said umpteen times that he will scrutinise, and oppose where necessary, any terms that are not compatible with Labour’s aims…Sounds democratic to me…
What is the LibDem position…
1) Not accept the electorate’s decision to leave; by voting against Article 50 being triggered?
2) Not accept ANY subsequent agreement (as it will inevitably be worse that our current situation)?
3) Demand another referendum no matter what the agreement?
4) If the referendum is still for ‘Leave” ask for a third?
We know point 1) is a given but what about the other 3?
Norman Lamb’s Twitter feed is certainly remarkably reticent on the burning issue of the day.
Whether any Lib Dem MPs refuse to vote against Article 50 or not, the current Lib Dem leadership position of constantly hurling abuse at Labour MPs who plan to do the same is completely unwarranted. As Harriet Harman wisely said on Marr yesterday, sometimes in opposition there is no good position to take – Farron should take note. Whether one agrees with MPs who vote for Article 50 or not, I really don’t see how it’s possible to hold such contempt for those who do when all they are doing is what the public voted for. For it’s a fact that, however else one may choose to “interpret” last June’s vote, the one thing that is inarguable is that the people voted to leave – and the triggering of Article 50 is the absolute bare minimum that can be done to carry out that instruction.
@matt
“Maybe Alistair Carmichael should enquire about how his own colleagues are going to vote before accusing Labour MP’s.
Norman Lamb, Greg Mulholland and John Pugh all abstained in the last vote and apposed Tim Farron’s and the parties position.”
What makes you think he hasn’t enquired?
You might have been sensible to make your own enquiries before ending up getting egg on your face.
For example, my own MP, John Pugh was reported in the press (as you would have found if you had bothered to look) commenting after last week’s Supreme Court judgement. He said this: “I as a Liberal Democrat will only vote to trigger article 50 if the public get to have the final say on whatever the negotiations result in.”
How do you think that means he “opposes Tim Farron’s and the parties position”?
Stuart
Your being on here a lot is a sign of someone set on a new course, away from the old not quite finding the new!
You can be a strong supporter or member of this party and disagree with the leader, some members have been doing that as a habit on and off , many years !
The point is on different issues we like or dislike a view , not a person. I loath the loathing of Nick Clegg. I think he deserves the criticism, but I like him and cannot hate him at all. Nor Blair, because I was once there, and liked , as Tim Farron says , “his earlier work !”
Our mps like Norman Lamb might not share the extent of worry , obsession, fear, etc on the EU .
I sympathise , even when I back our Tim !
@Simon Shaw
Your leadership’s position, as stated by Alistair Carmichael in the article above, is to “vote against unless the people are given a say on the final deal”.
John Pugh, in your quote, does not say he will vote against.
Are you saying categorically that John Pugh will support Tim Farron’s position and vote against Article 50 without an assurance of a second referendum? Where has he said that?
@Lorenzo
I am certainly a seeker. I make no secret of the fact that I have mostly voted Labour (but once or twice Lib Dem in local elections) but am now deeply disillusioned with ALL the parties left of the Tories. However, parties can change quickly – look at Labour! – so I certainly keep an open mind, and would not be here otherwise.
Simon Shaw quotes Dr John Pugh MP as saying, “I as a Liberal Democrat will only vote to trigger article 50 if the public get to have the final say on whatever the negotiations result in.”
Will Dr Pugh vote with the rest of the Party ? One doesn’t need to be a philosopher to interpret his comment as code for an abstention. I hope time proves me wrong.
A problem Liberal Democrat MP’s really must sort out is that of making strong comments in public and then doing (or not doing) something else in the Chamber. Yesterday, most of the day in the Commons was about Trump – Johnson’s statement and questions – followed by a debate on Travel Ban. Powerful speeches on all sides from every party – except one.
The Lib Dems ? Not a peep and nowhere to be seen.
Simon Shaw, You seem to be following every nuance of the LibDem position on ‘Brexit’…Perhaps you could answer my four questions ( expats 30th Jan ’17 – 5:28pm); I have tried to get specific details of our position but seem to end up more and more confused…The LibDem position seems to be long on rhetoric but short on detail…
@Simon Shaw
I don’t think I will have egg on my face at all. They abstained on the last article 50 vote, and i believe that is exactly what they will do again, most certainly Norman Lamb
Maybe you believe abstaining is a perfectly acceptable position to take on this issue, I wouldn’t given the fuss the libdems have made over the last few months claiming how they are the only real UK opposition, besides, i thought it was party position to vote against article 50. That’s the impression I have got from reading these forums and Farrons speeches etc.
Liberal Democrats like to paint themselves as the only UK Wide party that is united and that it is wholly objected to brexit, well Over 30% of the supporters do not agree with the party line, lets see what Lamb, Pugh and Mulholland, if they vote for article 50 or Abstain, then that’s 30% of the parliamentary party who is also not towing the party line
I guess we shall see what they do on Wednesday, the maybe you will be retracting some words on here 😉 I shall send you some eggs in the post for your convenience 😉 Simon
@matt
I think that Tim Farron has already signalled that abstention is likely, ironically in his letter demanding that Jeremy Corbyn should clarify his position: “I am clear that the Liberal Democrats will not vote to trigger Article 50 if the public are not guaranteed a referendum on the outcome of the government’s negotiation” (https://www.libdemvoice.org/tim-farron-writes-to-jeremy-corbyn-will-you-clarify-your-position-on-article-50-53061.html)
This does not explicitly state that Lib Dems will vote against triggering Article 50 if there is no second referendum. Neither is it explicit that Lib Dems will vote for triggering Article 50 if there is a second referendum.
This is an example of what Jeremy Browne noted recently: that the Lib Dems (and Labour) are competing to be Opposition parties but neither looks like an alternative Government.
Elsewhere (https://www.libdemvoice.org/banging-on-about-europe-53142.html), John Pugh makes it clearer that he will vote for Article 50 if there is a second referendum and against it if there is not.
Peter Watson 31st Jan ’17 – 11:09am…..
Elsewhere (https://www.libdemvoice.org/banging-on-about-europe-53142.html), John Pugh makes it clearer that he will vote for Article 50 if there is a second referendum and against it if there is not….
Clearer, but not definitive. He stated he would ‘be inclined’ to vote against it…Not the same as “Yes!”…
@expats
“Simon Shaw, You seem to be following every nuance of the LibDem position on ‘Brexit’…Perhaps you could answer my four questions …”
No, sorry I can’t – because I am very uninterested in such nuances.
However I do like to keep track of what my own MP (and former fellow ward councillor) says, so when people start saying silly things I may well correct them.
@Simon Shaw
“You might have been sensible to make your own enquiries before ending up getting egg on your face.”
As I thought would happen, Norman Lamb and Greg Mulholland abstained going against the party line to vote against article 50.
Would you like me to send you those eggs Simon? I will of course ensure they are from the happy egg company 😉