Some of the things Nick Clegg has championed in Government have been revolutionary for women. He’s spent years talking about shared parental leave, for example, and it’s now on the way to becoming a reality. His interest in improving mental health and smashing the related stigma doesn’t just help women, but it does show that he’s willing to take a stand to challenge our long held assumptions. He quickly and vocally embraced equal marriage to the delight of those of us who have supported it for decades.
I know that Nick gets it on a lot of the barriers facing women and his support of the work of Jo Swinson and Lynne Featherstone in Government is welcome. I would like to see him talking about these and other issues more, though. In the same way that Helena Morrissey said in her report that men had to be willing to be active participants in the quest for gender balance, so they need to be more vocal in challenging those things in our culture which harm women.
Campaigns like Everyday Sexism have shown some very ugly aspects of the way our society treats women on a daily basis. These things range from actual sexual assault to belittling and demeaning comments and attitudes. Some of you may know that I spent last weekend at a Doctor Who convention. I wondered at one point if I was at an archaeological dig finding relics from neanderthal times. The guy behind me in the photo queue was complaining about actor Neve McIntosh’s height because, get this, he didn’t like women being taller than him.
I’m sure he wouldn’t like to live in a society where most of the positions of power in business, politics and media were filled by women, while images of nude men, portrayed in a demeaning manner, were everywhere, a culture where w0men were seen to be talking about how the world should be run while men were accessories, adornments, who had to conform to narrow standards of beauty, an environment where kids were fed messages telling them that boys played with dolls, kitchens and make up while girls played with anything that was remotely interesting. Sound like fun? Welcome to the world of the majority of the population. And if you scratch at the surface, you find a very ugly world of sexual abuse, assault and violence against women. This is not acceptable in the sort of liberal society we want to create.
I agree with Daisy Cooper who was annoyed that Nick had been so dismissive about the No More Page 3 campaign earlier this year. I would like him to sign up to it like Tim Farron, Scottish leader Willie Rennie, 16 of our MPs and many other Liberal Democrats have done, but if he doesn’t believe that’s the right thing to do, fair enough. I would like him to acknowledge that there’s at least an issue with the way that women and girls are treated and portrayed in society. If he wants women to vote for us, to trust us as a party which values them and treats them equally, he will need to do that.
He’ll fall behind Ed Miliband if he doesn’t. Last week, the Labour leader made some very helpful comments on the subject:
We face a crisis of representation in our culture. Now, we all know the changes our culture has gone through in recent years. Many of those are good. Greater prominence is given to fantastic role models for women and girls than there were in the past – Clare Balding, Doreen Lawrence, JK Rowling, Jocelyn Bell Burnell – as well as many of you present here tonight.
It also about how people are seen, about the images we have of each other, because it is partly from those images, we learn to interact. There is a culture of increasingly sexualised images among young people: a culture that says that girls will only get on in life if they live up to the crudest of stereotypes; a culture where pornographic images, some violent, are available at a click on a smartphone or a laptop.
Even Alex Salmond has decided that now is the time to take a stand by publicly refusing to attend the open at Muirfield because the club doesn’t admit women. Cynics like Alex Massie may point out that it’s never stopped him going to all male things before and link it to the SNP’s undoubted problem of persuading women to vote for independence, but let’s give the man a bit of credit for making a stand that he can now never go back from and hope to retain a shred of credibility.
It was great to see Nick so vocal about the rainbow flag last week, but where was he when it came to the 100th anniversary of Emily Davison’s death? Not, as far as I can see, a peep. He’s not held back on making controversial comments on various issues before so why is he holding back?
Certainly, as a party, we have not much to celebrate. He has talked about the cultural change that’s necessary within the party but from what I can glean, nobody is suggesting that the expected announcement of new peers will even be gender balanced, let alone weighted in favour of women like it should be. However, as Helen Lewis writes in the New Statesman, Ed Miliband has a similar problem. While his shadow cabinet may be 40% women, his closest advisers are men. Nick Clegg has a ministerial team that is virtually all men and a male dominated team of advisers. If either of them waited for their parties to be perfect, we’d still be in the same place in 1000 years’ time.
It’s time for Nick (and every other man who represents us in Parliament) to show women he knows that they exist and that he understands the issues they face and care about.
* Caron Lindsay is Editor of Liberal Democrat Voice and blogs at Caron's Musings
Follow @libdemvoice.org on Bluesky
Like us on Facebook
Subscribe to our feed
Sign-up for our daily email digest
There really is no getting out of this fiscal corner
Former sheriff candidate to face trial for allegedly registering cats to vote
Our West End ward surgeries #dundeewestend
Reform u-turn after tasting reality of power
Peter Martin
Craig Levene
David Evans
Simon R
43 Comments
Yup. Appointing peers is the one thing he has control of. He should only appoint women until we get to the point of gender equality in our parliamentary party.
Why when you are editing LDV is there a disproportionate number of posts promoting women’s equality? Surely it is counterproductive because people start to get fed up of the constant pressure over it and the discrimination against men? The result is that people begin to ignore your women themed blog posts.
I know I have been on automoderation for a month, but I don’t think this is below the line. I think the best way to help women is to be balanced about it. There’s no point me mentioning this privately because you would just ignore me.
On the Doctor Who theme, I saw a great actres on Friday morning s, the brillant River Song herself, the voice instantly recogised even though her wild hair was tied up.
David, tell me more! Where was this?
Eddie, I write a lot of posts for this and other sites. A small proportion of them are on this subject. I don’t expect people to read every single post on this site. Some will interest them, some won’t. You clearly don’t like anything that talks about equality for women. Can I suggest that you just don’t read it? It’s not harming anybody to have them here and others do like them.
I’m a huge believer in treating people equally, being tough on FGM, supporting parental leave, removing prejudices and supporting women financially where they are naturally disadvantaged. The problem is that you are spreading prejudices and encouraging discrimination against men, which just increases resentment in society.
I’m also a huge believer in women being free to sell pictures of themselves topless and have them printed on page 3. If women want to sell the pictures, and men and women want to buy them, then surely it is hugely illiberal for someone to come along and say “I don’t like what you are doing so it should be banned”, and want to put them out of a job.
I think the best person for the job should get it and I don’t think gender should be a factor unless when it is agreeable for all parties such as modelling, acting and sport. This is the only deal that is fair for everyone.
I like them, and given the overwhelming bias against women in politics in general and in the Lib Dems in particular I have no problem with Caron posting on the issue.
@Eddie
Perhaps when we get a parliament that is truly representative, openness and equality in the workplace, the use of more appropriate role models in the media and a bit less general bigotry in this country we can have less articles highlighting the various “rights” issues.
Until then please keep posting Caron..
You mention the everyday sexism website that shows ugly aspects of the way society treats women, but there is also everyday sexism and stereotyping against men. It’s not a one way street at all.
“I’m sure he wouldn’t like to live in a society where most of the positions of power in business, politics and media were filled by women, while images of nude men, portrayed in a demeaning manner, were everywhere”
If a man wants to pose in a “demeaning” manner, it’s nothing to do with me. I don’t see these demeaning images of women everywhere – some might call it women’s liberation that they might want to pose in a manner that teases men and get paid for it.
Should we ban sexy music videos?
Oh and I’ve just collared someone on facebook for laughing about a website where men have posted intimate photos of women on the internet without their consent. I pointed out this was a form of sexual abuse, so I’m not uncaring about these things. Unfortunately this behaviour happens against men too, but I’m not saying in equal quantities. These are things we need to stamp out and where the government needs to intervene.
Eddie: Disproportionate compared to what? LDV is a political site and women are the majority of the electorate along with nearly half the Lib Dem party’s membership. So talking about how well or not women are treated in society or in the party is hardly a niche issue about a tiny group.
I think we should be addressing the issue of “classism” in the party, which seems to be a real problem, especially in the higher echelons. We already know that the party is not good at involving people from minority groups, whereas women are involved at all levels, and are central to all that the party does. That, of course, Caron, may be why there seem to be enough people who like such articles (as you mention). I know “everyday sexism” (and racism in the same way) exists, and personally it makes me cringe when I hear it, but the issue of class has become really damaging in the party – and has deeply affected the party in its approach to economic, educational, and employment issues. This is where efforts in the party should be focussed on internal change to implement radical policies for a genuinely new politics, not a reinforcement of age-old class attitudes and establishment ( Clegg translation – “centrist”) thinking.
From the female point of view, it was a great shame in 2010 that more of our women in target seats didn’t get elected – a real effort, and success – was made to ensure a very good proportion of women occupied targets, being given appropriate support. It did seem, in some cases, that the electorate didn’t support them as much as our male candidates in target seats. This unfortunate series of events has allowed enemies of the party to portray us a sexist, when that is not particularly so at all.
Caron writes about what floats her boat, as does Stephen. Nick and all the other LDV team.
Given the they do it voluntarily then I find other things to get bothered about. If I do get bothered at all – there is something to be said for reading things from a liberal perspective that I don’t agree 100% with.
Thank you, Mark — I know you are just stating the obvious but it needs to be said. And not just one time only.
@Mark Pack, yes that is true, but are people seeing the other 50 percent of articles on the site (Trident, legal aid, foreign policy etc.) as being about men’s issues? If so then the problem lies there – why are women excluded or feeling excluded from those issues, or feeling that they are not about them?
Caron,
She must have just arrived at Manchester Piccidilly railway station and was talking to a taxi driver.It was the voice that does it ,really different, unfortunately I was on my way for a job interview and had to press on.
David, I think she’s been playing Lady Macbeth – one person who might otherwise have been at the convention was going to see her. I have to say, I think she’d be brilliant.
eddie “there is also everyday sexism and stereotyping against men” Yes , that’s true. But the sexism in society in general is far more demeaning of women, even if we do fit the stereotypes, while most of the man stuff is that you have to be a “proper man” whatever that means – and if you are, collectively, you get most of the power. I remember a recent item about abortion time limits on the Today programme. The interviewer and all the contributors were all men. Now, I would have thought that at least one woman of reproductive capability would have had something to add to that debate.
I agree with most things there Caron but the ‘Say no to page 3’ campaign is illiberal to the core.
Most of the sexism against men is caused by standard sexism anyway. “women always get the children in a divorce” – because women are only good for being caregivers. “men aren’t allowed to show emotion” – because emotions are womanly and therefore bad.
You keep posting, Caron. Even though I don’t actually think no more Page 3 is doing much good I’d far rather see your posts than most of the stuff that gets left in comment threads on this site.
@Eddie
If you feel strongly about issues where there is sexism against men write an article to help give the balance you feel is missing. I accept there are some real issues, for example I have two friends being denied access to their children despite Court orders allowing access where no enforcement is being taken. That said there are still widespread and apparently deep rooted issues on equality in the other direction that I am glad the likes of Caron continue to raise. Here’s hoping my two daughters benefit from people willing to put their heads above the parapet.
Tim13
I think we should be addressing the issue of “classism” in the party, which seems to be a real problem, especially in the higher echelons.
Agreed. It’s a huge problem which no-one talks about. They seem to think that so long as the party puts more posh women forward and a few very wealthy ethnic minority people, then that’s the equality issue settled.
@alanplatypus: I don’t want to get into a long discussion about the Page 3 campaign on this thread, but I just wondered why you think a polite request to the editor of a newspaper, backed up by thousands of views and evidence in its support is illiberal? Surely you aren’t suggesting that newspaper editors should be beyond challenge? It’s important to make the point that nobody is campaigning for a ban. It’s all about asking the Sun to withdraw it voluntarily. It hasn’t, but that doesn’t mean we stop asking, or find different ways and evidence to back the campaign.
@Eddie Do you really think the best person is picked for every job going at the moment? I don’t. I’ve often mediocre men win out over excellent women in all sorts of things. There is already a structural and cultural imbalance which needs to be corrected by a variety of measures, in my view. Positive discrimination, or affirmative action, is one way of doing it but its effects are short term. Cultural change takes longer but is more enduring.
Caron, I think people pick who they think is best for the job. The issue is when people think that women generally aren’t best for the job. Now, there are things we can do to reduce this, but I think someone adopting aggressive feminism makes them less likely to get picked, so is self defeating.
Of course I think we should help women, but I think it is possible to try to help too much, to the point where it goes from helping women to harming men.
Steve Way, thanks for the suggestion and the example, I should probably write an article about it, I’m just not very well organised at the moment but that should change soon.
jenny barnes, I agree that women are more damaged by sexism than men and I’m glad you recognise it exists. I’m not really bothered about the proper man stuff, it’s more attitudes that men aren’t as nice as women that bother me.
Mark Pack, my issue is with the content and the volume, so my grievances are double whammy.
I’m not trying to silence anyone, I just think feelings, even if negative, are better expressed than suppressed, albeit with a bit of restraint to help the mental health.
Hi Caron,
If it was simply a request I’d have no problem but it’s not is it? It’s been stated many times by people around the campaign that if the Sun does not remove the regular feature on page 3 they’ll try to resort to legislation. You may not agree with that but you may want to refer back to the LibDemVoice survey some time last year that stated some of our own members would be in favour of an outright ban. Of course that just one of the many illiberal things about the campaign…
“Do you really think the best person is picked for every job going at the moment? I don’t. I’ve often mediocre men win out over excellent women in all sorts of things.”
My totally subjective view – Twenty or thirty years ago, that was very very true. These days, it largely isn’t true any more.
Of course that’s just one man’s limited view. What does the evidence say? Is it beyond the wit of (wo)man to devise some sort of objective test – for example, the percentage of women who win out at a job interview, compared to what it would have been if the employer had just set a written multiple-choice type of test?
Matthew Huntbach
Just to underline your comment that no-one much in the party talks (or perhaps, wants to talk) about classism, no-one here has since your post!
Caron demonstrates how diversity in the LibDemVoince editorial team leads to better content. 😀
This is great! Caron I hope you are standing as an MP!
Caron for MP !
Analysis of the autumn budget found that 81 % of the cuts came from women’s pockets. 81% !!!
“assault and violence against women” – indeed – and that includes financial violence.
Well, this time it took TWO posts until somebody questioned whether a debate about the disadvantages of women is even legitimate (with the obligatory reference to discrimination of men, of course).
As long as every argument about women’s issues still ends up with an argument whether we are even allowed to talk about this, we have a very long way to go. In my experience, at the moment this is unfortunately the norm among us LibDems. I am thoroughly fed up with it, and have decided to point it out wherever I can.
Interesting just how many people are determined to silence every discussion of this matter, usually using the language of equality, but in a way that puts every proper definition of this concept to shame.
I am not impressed.
(But I am grateful for the many more open-minded contributions to this thread: we can change this!).
I do not alwa6ys agree with Caron but do like reading her point of view on issues plus she is a Doctor Who fan, so Caron ignore the whinging, moaning people above and say it as you see it.
Maria, of course people are “allowed to talk about this”, but it would be much preferable to talk about the much more pernicious problem of class in our party. What I have tried to say is that people belonging to certain backgrounds find it easier to progress in politics (it doesn’t affect their progress if they are men or women, usually). This has been a much more difficult problem for us as a party, because of our principles as expressed in our constitution (not excluding people because of financial resources etc). Another problem has been the relative advantaging of the South East in this process. The combined effect of this has been to push our policies, and those elected to positions in our party rightwards (sorry, I can’t help using the right-left spectrum to describe this process, as that’s what it looks like to me).
My perception is that the argument about men’s and women’s equality is all over bar the shouting – many corrections are being made, and will be made where there are outstanding imbalances, but we are getting there. In the case of class / availability of resources to those from certain backgrounds, we need to take this fully on the chin, and DO something about it, not just pretend it exists not!
David Allen: many studies have indeed been done. Here are just two, but a swift Google will reveal many more:
Women less likely to get a job in the first place even with the same accomplishments as men: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/25/science/bias-persists-against-women-of-science-a-study-says.html?_r=0
When women DO get a job they are treated less well: http://pda.sciencealert.com.au/news/20132503-24184.html
Maria, I made it very clear in the comment that you refer to that my problem was with the number of posts about the topic and not the act of debating it itself, so please don’t invent my views.
Tim, just to respond to your claim that people don’t wish to talk about the class problem: I think merit is vastly more important than diversity in candidate selection. I think when looking at diversity we need to focus on a bottom up approach, to ensure we broaden the diversity of the best people coming through, not just pick people based on diversity and leave the best people behind.
Call me quirky if you will, but I tend to be of the view that, when you review recruitment processes for potential discrimination, the first question you ask is, “Is there anything here which prevents me from getting the best outcome?”, by which I mean, “are potentially high quality applicants discouraged?”.
That must evidently include the statutory protections, but must also include class. Politics must be about representing, and including, everyone, as far as they wish to engage.
And reviewing your processes for that isn’t about introducing positive discrimination, it’s about removing discrimination. I would argue that process is less of a problem than it was, but overcoming deep-seated, sometimes subconscious prejudice is still a challenge.
But Nick has sometimes failed to meet his own rhetoric on diversity, and it is entirely fair to call him on it, as Caron does here.
Eddie Sammon
Tim, just to respond to your claim that people don’t wish to talk about the class problem: I think merit is vastly more important than diversity in candidate selection.
I’m finding it difficult to relate this to the point Tim made. You seem to be suggesting we should not worry about the way that gaining influence in our party seems to be strongly linked to being high up the lass scale, because merit is the main thing to be concerned with. If that is what you mean, the implication is that you believe people at the top of the class scale have much more merit than people lower down, and that is why they dominate at the top of our party.
I see it the other way round. There is a tendency in our society to over-rate people and think them very intelligent and able if they have the accent and demeanour associated with the top end of the class scale, and to write them off as not leadership material, best placed in supplementary roles if they are not. That is, a great deal of merit is missed because people don’t see it when it’s in someone from a lower-class background.
Tim13
Another problem has been the relative advantaging of the South East in this process.
No, no, NO!
What you say just illustrates how deep class prejudice is, even in people who think they are against it. How many people at the top of our society speak with south-eastern accents? And no, I don’t mean the accent of the posh – “Received Pronunciation”. I mean the accent of working class and lower middle class people in the south-east. The answer is almost none.
Most people in south-east England speak with an accent which northerners probably think of as “Cockney”, although the name “Estuary English ” has also been given to it. But class prejudice is so deep in the south-east, that people who speak that way rarely make it to influential position. So northerners hear people from the top of the class scale speaking and think that’s what a “southerner” is. People in the middle and lower end of the social scale in the south-east are so discriminated against that northerners are hardly aware they even exist. That is why we go so much rubbish comment on north-south divisions which assumes everyone in the south is a top civil servant or a stock-broker or something like that. While people are aware of what a northern accent is, a true southern accent is usually just dismissed as poor English.
Matthew, I am saying people shouldn’t discriminate against class, any class, which is the same as my view on race, gender, sexuality etc.
This is not to say I don’t think there should be measures to reduce diversity, but we have to bear in mind that we can’t pay our own bills so sometimes we need to do things like cut councillors’ pay, even if it reduces diversity. I was actually against the latest cuts to councillor pay, but my opposition fades when I think about the deficit.
To get back to your point, I think people from working class backgrounds are discriminated against, but sometimes they are propelled in order to spread a false image of diversity, so the people most discriminated against are actually the real middle class, people from average backgrounds.
Jennie,
Thanks, interesting links, which are quite convincing – but, they’re about the situation in the US and Australia, not the UK!
Eddie Sammon
To get back to your point, I think people from working class backgrounds are discriminated against, but sometimes they are propelled in order to spread a false image of diversity, so the people most discriminated against are actually the real middle class, people from average backgrounds.
As noted in my comment immediately above yours, this is not something I have ever noticed. I have not noticed that powerful positions in society are stuffed full of people from working class backgrounds. But I can think of a great many people who really are rather incompetent, and who seem to have been pushed forward because the ways of speech and demeanour etc of people from an upper middle class background is still taken to be an indication of general intelligence and ability, so these people are judged to be much more suitable for leadership positions than is really the case. You know, people from public school backgrounds with wealthy parents who are constantly pushed forward as “obviously the next leader”, and we are told they are “great communicators” even though they have little experience of the thing they are supposed to be the obvious best leader of, have nothing original to say, flop when placed under pressure, and once in the post prove so incompetent and make so many mistakes that they wreck the thing.