After the last election, many thousands who voted Labour in Lib Dem-Tory marginals are furious with the Lib Dems for forming a coalition with the Tories. But when you stop and think about it, if they are angry with anyone, it should be with themselves.
We shouldn’t be too hard on them. The biggest blame lies with the election system.
At the last election, the Lib Dems and Labour had a combined vote of 52%, but together, they only had 315 MPs, ten short of a majority. To their great credit, many Labour supporters used their vote tactically, but there were not enough. Just an extra 12,335 could have swung ten seats away from the Tories, and history might have been very different.
A year on, this is extremely topical. On May 5th, in numerous wards across the country, Lib Dem candidates will be the main challengers to the Tories. How Labour supporters vote in Lib Dem-Tory marginals could determine whether they wake up on May 6th ruled by a Tory council.
The coming few years are going to be extremely tough on local government. Cuts will happen, whoever is in charge. But, for some Labour members, if they don’t want those cuts to be made by a Tory council, they should think about voting tactically.
Of course, there’s also a referendum on this issue. Perhaps you dislike the whole idea of being forced to vote for someone you dislike, in order to stop some one you hate. If so, then vote YES to AV.
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29 Comments
If you want to attract third-party voters, probably not a good idea to start by haranguing them for their previous choices.
of course, these same labour voters are the ones who are now saying they will vote no to AV just to give Nick Clegg a bloody nose… *rolleyes* and they wonder why they get characterised as stupid.
I don’t think the gist of your argument would impress many Labour voters these days. Most of us, when confronted with the sight of the government front bench, look from Tory to Lib Dem, and from Lib Dem to Tory, and from Tory to Lib Dem again; and already we find it impossible to say which is which.
It seems the Lib Dems have belatedly woken up to this problem and are now falling over themselves to show a contrast between themselves and their Tory colleagues. Time will tell whether this is genuine, or whether it’s a transient phenomenon that only manifests itself within two weeks of elections.
“Perhaps you dislike the whole idea of being forced to vote for someone you dislike, in order to stop some one you hate. If so, then vote YES to AV.”
Great! Er, how will AV achieve this though??
Hi George,
Are Lib Dem supporters who failed to back Labour in Labour/Tory marginals last year also at fault? And would you urge them to vote Labour in these council elections to keep the Tories out?
Agreed with Don – I don’t see why it’s more the Labour voter’s fault than an equivalent Lib-Dem voter.
“To their great credit, many Labour supporters used their vote tactically, but there were not enough.”
An argument in favour of tactical voting, a little surprising perhaps but can i take this to mean that you support the continuation of FPTP, because you can’t have it both ways………..
Of course one can support voting in an effective way when stuck with a bad voting system, but still wanting to reform the system. There’s no contradiction there.
It’s not their fault. It’s the fault of the election system. It’s broken, it divides people who want similar things. It needs to be fixed.
@Donpaskini “Are Lib Dem supporters who failed to back Labour in Labour/Tory marginals last year also at fault? And would you urge them to vote Labour in these council elections to keep the Tories out?”
Hi Don,
I think that building support for the Lib Dems is worthwhile in and of itself, even if it doesn’t result in council seats, and for me, that takes precedence over tactical voting.
I know some Labour supporters feel the same about voting Labour, so I understand their refusal to vote tactically. But, if so, they should stop using the language of betrayal about the Coalition.
At times, there are Labour-Tory pacts on local councils. I don’t like them. When you remember all the things that Labour say about the Tories, they look pretty bizarre. But they aren’t betrayal. And the Coalition isn’t either.
Think you’ve got it the wrong way round George – it’s tens of thousands of Labour supporters who voted Lib Dem in Lib Dem-Tory marginals who are furious with the Lib Dems. Better hope the AV vote is yes because many of them will not do so again.
“If you voted Labour in a Lib Dem-Tory marginal, it’s your fault”
So we are back to blaming Labour and Labour voters again are we? maybe the Party should of campaigned harder on the “Vote Lib Dem to keep the Tories out” ticket…. oh I forgot….. that became a bit of an embarrassment after the GE for some reason, something to do with Coalitions and choice of partner I believe.
Don’t get me wrong the LDs where in a difficult position after the GE but blaming Labour Voters for it is a bit rich especially after Clegg’s “Lib Dems never were and aren’t a receptacle for leftwing dissatisfaction with Labour” speech
(then again if the left wing protest vote was a little higher………….)
I try to be objective here as an outsider but this article is ludicrous as it says one of two things:
either the Liberal Democrats and the Labour party are so similar that their combined votes should really count as one party in which case pack up, go home, dissolve the Lib Dems and join Labour to save on admin…
or you are different parties with different views in which case you should expect people to vote for different parties and have different policies in which case you can’t start calling people stupid for their vote.
In many people’s opinion the Liberal Democrats are a duplicitous and opportunistic party with bar charts to ‘keep labour out’ or ‘the tories out’ in different constituencies in the same general election and so why should you expect people to side with you when you betray their trust.
At least when you vote Tory you know they will eat your children and when you vote Labour they will bankrupt the country but when you vote Lib Dem anything could happen at all – better the devil you know than the devil you know is bad but can’t predict the actions of…
Having, in the past, delivered many a Focus with a Bar Chart prominently displayed, this ex Lib Dem finds himself having to agree with a “conservative”. Oh the shame of it!
And, would you believe, my local Lib Dems are at it again in their council election leaflets. It’s almost enough to make me vote anything but Lib Dem on 5th May, but that would be a shame as I believe the party has probably the best candidates in my ward.
It’s simple – Work for a ‘Yes to AV’ win and If it happens the need for tactical voting will be history!
@Leekliberal
Apart from with second and third preferences of course, when you get to decide you’re least worst option, in other words tactically vote.
“of course, these same labour voters are the ones who are now saying they will vote no to AV just to give Nick Clegg a bloody nose… *rolleyes* and they wonder why they get characterised as stupid.”
The debate on AV would be enormously improved if the supporters on either side didn’t routinely dismiss people that disagree with them as stupid.
Try listening, understanding and debating before your knee starts jerking.
Considering the Lib Dems want a more proportional electoral system and consider the current voting system to be unfair because it leads to tactical voting blaming the Labour party voters for not voting tactically is ridiculous. If we do get AV, the Lib Dems will have to come up with better reasons to put a no 1 by the Lib Dems because the whole “Party X can’t win here” will not convince anyone. If they’re not careful, they will lose sufficient 1st prefs that they end up behind the Greens and UKIP in some seats, and therefore will suffer early elimination!
and people say Labour are tribal. this is ridiculous the number of times ive seen Labour supporters labelled as stupid, tribal nasty etc. I think Liberal Democrats should really start to look at themselves and stop trying to pander to the right wing vote with this constant bashing of Labour.
@George Kendall
“Of course, there’s also a referendum on this issue. Perhaps you dislike the whole idea of being forced to vote for someone you dislike, in order to stop some one you hate. If so, then vote YES to AV.”
What I dislike are people who sell you a tin labelled “Blueberry Pie” and when you get home you open it up and find it is metal polish. (c.f. Citizenship for illegal immigrants; pledge on tuition fees; no VAT bombshell; no top down reorganisation of the NHS etc., etc.) I always vote Labour, never vote tactically, because I believe you should vote for your principles. FPTP is the only system which more or less guarantees that people will have to do what they say they will do on the tin. The people of Britain know that which is why they will vote no to AV. All you are trying to do on this thread is frighten Labour people into voting tactically in Lib Dem/Tory marginals to keep your wretched gang of unprincipled turncoats in power locally. Well it won’t work. Your lot are headed for melt down.
@MacK: “FPTP is the only system which more or less guarantees that people will have to do what they say they will do on the tin”
To quote Pratchett and Gaiman:
“God does not play games with His loyal servants,” said the Metatron, but in a worried tone of voice.
“Whoo-ee,” said Crowley. “Where have you been?”
FPTP guarantees sweet b*gger-all. Neither would AV. Once the good ship Government has been launched, it goes wherever the wind blows. Those manning it have world-class navigational skills… like Columbus, who pledged to go to India and hit America instead.
daft ha’p’orth
“Once the good ship Government has been launched, it goes wherever the wind blows. Those manning it have world-class navigational skills… like Columbus, who pledged to go to India and hit America instead.”
Well, yeah. But if that were completely true there would never have been a Welfare State or an NHS and we would have been spared Thatcher’s destruction of this country and her vendetta against the miners in the eighties. Fortunately, under FPTP when governments take office after a general election with a majority we can still hold them to account on the basis of their manifesto. Unless they enter into a coalition of course, in which case they cobble together an agreement that no-one’s voted for and which they renege on as soon as they get the opportunity, Remember all that stuff about democratising PCTs by allowing members of the public to sit on them? That was in the coalition agreement for a few weeks and then he Lib Dem Cons decided to abolish PCTs altogether.
George
I find your articles spirited mostly but you are way of the mark on this one.
Many Labour voters voted for a Liberal Democrat at the general election and ended up with a government that is dismantling, fragmenting and privatising the NHS. To many voters considering issues that matter the Liberal Democrats are indistinguishable to the Tories. The LDS went into government with the Tories that enabled vicious right wing free market policies. On the economy there is no difference.
So now you are trying to claim that the LDs are significantly different to the Tories in practise ? You are having a go at Labour voters who have not voted yet for not being able to vote for the LDs as they can’t tell the difference/ Who’s fault is that ? I suggest that the LDs and the leadership need to be held accountable for their actions and not try to pin the blame on Labour voters who have seen an LD leadership betrayal.
All the LD lost Councillors on May 5th should look towards Clegg, Alexander and the right wing Democratic leadership for their demise.
@Jack Timms “I find your articles spirited mostly”
Nice of you to say that.
“but you are way of the mark on this one”
On reflection, it’s not one of my best. I’ve been feeling that we Lib Dems have been too defensive. In my opinion, the deficit left whoever was in power no choice but to implement what the opposition call “vicious right wing”. Labour would have done the same.
However, I regret the title. I was trying to be provocative, but it’s too tribal. Perhaps “12,335 reasons why there is a Lib Dem/Tory coalition”, would have been better.
And Don makes a valid point. If I’m suggesting Labour supporters should vote against the Tories despite their support of their party, the same argument applies to Lib Dems.
I have every sympathy for Labour supporters who vote Labour in Lib Dem/Con marginals. I’ve never lived in a Con/Lab marginal, and if I did, I’d vote still Lib Dem, though I admit I’d have faced a serious moral dilemma in some elections, especially 1987 when the poll tax was being proposed.
The main thrust of my article was an attack on those Labour supporters who use such hyperbole to describe a Conservative government, yet were one of the 12,335 reasons why an alternative wasn’t possible. And on those who support FPTP and oppose AV.
Another aspect of my article that maybe I could have developed is my changing attitude to Labour. I’ve been anti-Tory most of my life, and, in the main, I’ve always preferred the election of a Labour government to a Tory. But, last May, for the first time in a very long time, this was no longer true.
Last May, I was surprised at the strength of my reaction to the way the Labour government were being dishonest about the deficit, and how Brown and Balls were using vicious manipulative tactics to marginalise the more honest voices such Alistair Darling.
As soon as it became clear we were borrowing over ten per cent of our national product every year, the tone Brown and Balls were adopting seemed to me criminally irresponsible.
So, if I appear to imply that I’m still as anti-Tory as I always was, well, I’m still anti-Tory, but I’ve no longer got an instinctive sympathy to the idea of a Labour government.
“If you voted Labour in a Lib Dem-Tory marginal, it’s your fault”
Good to see that the LibDems when in power are able to accept responsibility for their own actions rather than blaming others. Given that I live in LibDem – Tory marginal for my local councils in which there is no Labour candidate perhaps I will be spoliing my ballot paper for the first time ever. Although I am open to persuasion dependent on the attitudes of the LibDem candidates to removing Clegg and his ilk.
George
Thanks for responding. I enjoy reading your articles even though I don’t agree with all that’s written. It is nice that you take time to respond to individual points raised in a civilised fashion.
From my perspective dealing with the deficit, caused by major by bailing out the bankers who have lacked effective regulation for the last 20 years should not lead to what are clearly Tory right wing (unmandated), state shrinking ideological cuts and privatisations. It appears that the more right wing Democrats clearly follow exactly the Tory line that Labour caused the financial problems, which is really not true within the scale and depth of the financial crisis.
The rushed and ill thought through fragmentation and privatisation of the NHS is a disaster in the making. Rushed policy is not good policy.
Why are LDs supporting right wing free market Conservative positions on the NHS in particular? I don’t buy that Lansley, Clegg or Cameron or really listening or will make anything but very small and basic changes to the bill.
The deficit needed to be dealt with, but not like this. An broad party support for managing the cuts with the consent of the electorate could have been forged. The chance has been lost. The Tory approach is too brutal and there will be no demand or growth. Osbourne is expecting the consumers to spend and create the growth, when his policies create the opposite behaviour. Today’s figures on consumer confidence are terrible. There will be no consumer lead demand that will create growth.
When the US conservatives reduce US demand with big cuts, the world economy will enter an even more difficult period. Osbourne (and fiscal conservatives worldwide) are forcing us into a downward spiral. I really do fear for this country.
Jack Timms
I would have been hard pressed to choose between Labour and the Lib Dems on their platforms at the last election. I’ve never liked Orange book economic liberalism but I’m greener, more pro-Europe and more libertarian than Labour.
I wouldn’t, however, have been hard pressed to choose not to vote Tory.
As I live in a Tory/Lib Dem marginal I thought it was a no brainer. I bought into the bar charts and so on and duly voted Lib Dem, just as I have at every election since I turned 18.
I wanted the Tory kept out, I helped keep the Tory candidate out and yet Cameron is PM with my MP’s support. I feel a whole lot more responsible for that than I would if I’d voted Labour, Green or anything other than Lib Dem. So I’d say do blame me…I blame me.
Right now this Lib Dem/Tory marginal might as well be an ultra-safe Tory seat. So don’t preach about keeping the Tory out…it won’t wash. It will take more than bar charts to get my vote against a Lib Dem candidate anytime soon.
I voted Lib Dem in a Lab-Con ward and wanted to see the back of Gordon Brown as much as the next person.
However I couldn’t vote Tory – I only get the chance once every 4 years to vote for an MP and I want to vote for a Liberal.
Similarly if Labour were 100 votes away from kicking out Thatcher I couldn’t vote for an illiberal party.
Tactical voting works for some, but there’ll always be people idealogically wedded to a certain tradition and won’t budge. I’ll vote for a Liberal candidate – nothing else.
Lots of Labour voters would say something similar along the lines of “I’ll vote for a socialist – nothing else”
Given the Lib Dems and Labour have practically nothing in common except a dislike of Conservatives I don’t see why Socialists should vote Lib Dem at all.
Liberalism and Socialism are totally opposed to one another and there should be room for both traditions in politics, not just ‘Tories’ and ‘Not Tories’. I don’t vote out of dislike for somebody, I vote positively – for a party that represents my philosophical beliefs.
I live in a Tory area that the Lib Dems have won in the past. I am a Labour voter. This time I have 2 Tory, 2 Lib Dem and 1 Green cadidate only. I shall cast a single vote for the Green candidate. I have never voted Green.
@ Michael…I assume then that you’re opposed to AV as the whole system is based on people happily voting for (if you’re a pedant a rephrase to say, making a second or third etc preference that may end up counting as a positive endorsement of) a candidate from a party that doesn’t represent your philosophical beliefs.
I also assume you strongly object to any piece of Lib Dem literature that appeals to tactical voters by holding up the Lib Dem candidate as the only hope of keeping out Tory/Labour in a given ward/constituency.