On Wednesday I went to my first hustings as a European Parliament candidate (number 3 on the Yorkshire and the Humber list). When the Green candidate announced that he supported staying in the EU, I had a quiet conversation with the Labour candidate sitting next to me.
- I thought the Greens wanted to pull out of the EU
- No, they want to stay in.
- Oh, last time I checked they wanted to pull out, but the policy does change from time to time.
So which is it? Do the Greens want us in the EU or out of it? Drumroll please…
We just need to look in their European elections manifesto here and … you know I can’t find the policy. I’m pretty sure I read it all, it’s only 12 pages and some of those are just pictures.
OK, the Greens are a democratic party, and there will be a record of policy papers agreed by conference. And here it is. Let’s not read all of that; though some of it is quite good, other bits are hilarious or insufferably pious, and a fair bit happens already. Scroll down to the end, part 8, UK membership of the EU.
Erm. See if you can find it.
Part 8: UK Membership of the EU
EU900 The Green Party supports European co-operation on Green lines, as set out in our Vision for Europe (see Part 1). However, the EU is founded on a commitment to economic growth which cannot be sustained.
EU901 While much good has come out of the European Union there remain many policies that urgently need changing, such as the Common Agricultural Policy and the Common Fisheries Policy. Future developments in the EU must take the EU closer towards Green principles and objectives.
EU902 The Green Party’s aim is a reconstitution of the EU as a European Confederation of Regions on Green lines pursuing ecological policies.
EU903 Whilst the Green Party is opposed to the objectives, structure and policies of the EU as currently constituted, as long as the U.K. remains a member of the EU the Green Party will stand in elections to the European Parliament and elected Green MEPs will work for fundamental reform of the EU from within.
EU904 So long as the UK remains a member of the EU, The Green Party will campaign and support negotiations to achieve any improvements in the EU which are possible.
EU905 Any UK decision to withdraw from the EU shall be subject to a referendum.
EU903 does seem to suggest you would vote to pull out, but it could be a lot clearer.
Though I must say the Greens’ bizarre election broadcast now makes a lot more sense. At first viewing you might think it is saying ‘look at those two silly people arguing’; whereas the message surely is ‘look at those two silly people who have an opinion on whether to be in the EU or not’. (Don’t bother watching the policy bit at the end, there are no more jokes of the funny kind at that point.)
I suppose that’s fair enough after all MEPs don’t get to vote on whether to pull out of the EU or not. Though it might have given us some clue what you stand for. I suppose what makes it difficult is that membership of the EU is a question about dealing with the world as it is, as opposed to how you might want it to be.
* Joe Otten was the candidate for Sheffield Heeley in June 2017 and Doncaster North in December 2019 and is a councillor in Sheffield.
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24 Comments
furiously trying to scrape together as many “party of in” votes as possible, against the come eurocalypse?
I don’t have any trouble understanding what the Greens’ position: they’re for *an* EU, just not *the* EU as it currently exists, and would like to reform the EU from within to make it closer to their vision if possible, and to work from outside to achieve their vision if not.
Sure David that is a position, just not one on the question that faces us. Given that what the Greens see as reform – becoming anti-trade and anti-growth – is incompatible with all other reform agendas, failure of this “reform” can be guaranteed, and they can fast forward to having an opinion on Brexit.
I suppose EU903 needn’t suggest Brexit if you are also opposed to the policies, structure and objectives of the UK, but why leave us guessing like this?
Well said, David-1. Having taken the time to read all of the Green’s EU policy statement, rather than take a single section out of context to make a poltical point, I found their position coherent. Whilst not perfect fit with my social liberal view of the world, there is much that appeals to it.
During the 1990s the “Greens” position shifted from being vehemently Anti-EU to unenthusiastically in favour. The position hasnt shifted since then & there are still large Pro & Anti minorities. In many ways Green tensions on Localism vs Internationalism mirror those in The Libdems, only more extreme.
The overall Green stategy for the last 2 decades has been built round the idea that there is a “Gap on The Left” of British Politics which The Green can fill. The Far-Left still tend to be Anti-EU of course.
I put Greens in commas because there is a seperate, Pro-Independence Green Party in Scotland & I cant remember what their position on Europe is.
Joe – Looks as though you are losing on this article too. Generally, Lib Dems look at things from a more “first principles” way than you, ie, they try to ensure they look at strategies, policies, objectives etc from various angles and come to conclusions. Your “Question of the Moment”, “Should the UK be in or out?” is very much a soundbite, not the basis for a policy. Surely what we should be doing is showing people the nuances, hopefully in understandable ways, so that we can understand the pros and cons, needs for change etc (which can include the UK, local, as well as the EU).
@Tim13. Maybe that’s why Libdems are doing so badly: they’re ignoring the importance of soundbites. Looking at stuff and stuff and stuff from various angles and trying to ensure and coming up with conclusions, may sound intellectually attractive, but it isn’t any kind of meaningful communication with voters at all.
Firstly the Greens have a position on the EU because Joe sets out some of it. It is a reasonable position to want to get MEPs elected to reform the EU more to your liking. This is the Greens position and while Nick Clegg seems to have forgotten about it, it is still our party’s position. As Joe is standing to be elected as an MEP I would really expect him to know this and for him to want to set out the ways we wish to reform the EU more to our liking.
@ Joe Otten “Sure David that is a position, just not one on the question that faces us. Given that what the Greens see as reform – becoming anti-trade and anti-growth – is incompatible with all other reform agendas, failure of this “reform” can be guaranteed, and they can fast forward to having an opinion on Brexit.”
Once Joe recognises that the Greens do have a position he then derides it because he doesn’t support it and doesn’t think there will ever be a majority in favour of it. Personally I don’t support the Greens position but I understand the reasons they have for the policy and I don’t see it as being unachievable in the long term, they just have to persuade people to their position. When the Labour Party was formed I wonder if people said your ideas will never be achievable, but in less than 60 years they were enacting their ideas in government.
Obviously everyone wants to change the EU in some ways, that is what politics is about. The questions are about the direction of change and whether and in what circumstances a party would advocate pulling out.
For Greens the direction is fairly clear, but Joe is right to ask whether they are inclined to leave. This is important because environmental issues can only be dealt with through international cooperation. No party that is serious about taking practical steps on the environment can realistically turn its back on the EU, since being out of the EU would render any such steps much more difficult. The alternative is a purist position which is less concerned with practical measures.
Richard Dean – I don’t think you could ever say MOST Focuses are ever over-intellectual!! (I do exclude the occasional edition written from one individual’s point of view in 8 point, without any illustration or break from the text!)
As someone considering voting Green in the European elections, I was about to disagree with Joe Otten. (And I do disagree with his point about not having an in/out policy because, as he says, that is not for MEPs to decide.)
But looking at the 12-page Green “mini manifesto” I have to say that the Greens say virtually nothing about how they want to change the EU – just half a page of platitudes at the end. Most of the content seems to be about domestic policy, which is nothing to do with MEPs.
Given that there is so much discussion occurring over the mini manifesto I thought it important to point out that there is a full manifesto which sets out EU policy much more clearly. Essentially, pro-reform, pro-referendum and anti over federalisation for the interests of big business at the expense of EU citizens. They believe the key purpose is to resolve Europe-wide (and indeed global) problems such as tax evasion, climate change and unregulated financial sector (namely through the introduction of a Financial Transactions Tax with the capability of short term modification through the Spahn mechanism).
Manifesto is here: http://greenparty.org.uk/assets/files/European%20Manifesto%202014.pdf
My bad. Yes the full manifesto – which I did not find when researching this article – says on page 31 that they support staying in. Not sure why this isn’t in the record of policy agreed by conference, though it may be in another part of that record I suppose.
Given that there is so much discussion occurring over the mini manifesto I thought it important to point out that there is a full manifesto which sets out EU policy much more clearly.
Thanks. So on Nick Clegg’s “party of IN” criterion I can vote Green with a clear conscience after all?
All political parties change. The Lib Dems today have changed a lot compared to the Liberal party I joined in 1983.
I am curious to know why the Green party appears to have changed from being anti to pro European. But if they have then that is good news. Maybe in 2017 we will be campaigning with them in the EU referendum?
Just because a debate is formed as “one or the other”, don’t expect everyone to subscribe to that debate. The debate around the EU at the moment is toxic and intellectually unsound. There are massive advantages and disadvantages to both being in the EU and leaving, and about the EU in general. None of its disadvantages will be solved by leaving, but with the debate framed around “in or out” you either get Farage’s “the EU is the source of all evil” rubbish or Clegg’s militant apologism.
The Green Party position is more nuanced. They’re not enthusiastically pro-EU, but know there are massive advantages to the UK, and the world, to staying and keeping it together, but there are also huge problems with it. None of which will be changed by leaving.
We aren’t getting this debate, and we definitely won’t if there’s a referendum.
Daniel, can you give me an example of this militant apologism, because I suspect it is a tabloid fiction. Liberal Democrats have a string reform agenda for the EU, probably overlapping with the Greens in places.
But I accept your position is as you state it and welcome that. Has the text I quoted been superceded? And why bury the answer to the most-asked question on page 31 of the less-visible manifesto?
He’s positioned himself and the Lib Dems as the antithesis of UKIP on Europe. He’s arguing strongly against withdrawal. He’s certainly pointed to criticisms, but he’s allowed the debate to be about all or nothing. I don’t think it’s entirely intentional on his part in how its been portrayed, but it’s short-sighted if he expected it any other way. Especially when he took the bait for the debates. Greens and Lib Dems do probably overlap in a lot of EU reform issues though, you’re right.
As for the visibility of our position on Europe. Beats me, Taken a while to get a manifesto out. I imagine we’ve decided that there’s enough people sick of the debate (hence our PPB) that focusing on other things rather than get involved in a debate we can’t win (as our position is more nuanced and it isn’t about winning) is likely to engage more people
Why would you vote in an European election based on whether the party wants to stay in or out? It’s totally irrelevant. The one thing you can be completely sure that our MEPs can’t influence is whether we stay in Europe or not.
I was that Green Party Candidate in the hustings that Joe attended. Much of what I would have said has been said by others regarding the Green Party position on Europe. My clear memory was Joe answering a question on human rights and trade by spending a lot of time explaining what an important economic power China was almost as if he was saying that trade should take precedence over human rights. I know he used to be a Green but he sure didn’t sound very Liberal.
I dare say recognising the emergence of Asia as the centre of the global economy over the next century might be ‘almost’ saying a lot of things. But I do caution against thinking we can dictate terms to China, though obviously we are in a stronger position as part of the EU, and on the same page as the US.
Daniel, just to clarify. We are unequivocal about the importance of staying in, and reject the idea that that undermines our reform agenda – in fact committed and active Europeans will achieve more reform than those who appear to be on their way out anyway.
I’m surprised at the “all or nothing” characterisation of this position from the party that was a few comments ago explaining the importance of nuance. “All or nothing” implies you think reform is impossible…
““I’m surprised at the “all or nothing” characterisation of this position from the party that was a few comments ago explaining the importance of nuance. All or nothing” implies you think reform is impossible…”
Obviously, the criticism is that the Lib Dem position isn’t coming across as nuanced – that by stressing the unconditional headline of “the party of IN” and by presenting it simply as the antithesis of UKIP, the electorate is given the impression that the Lib Dems are uncritical Euro-enthusiasts. As exemplified by Clegg’s vision of Europe in ten years time as about the same as it is now …
According to our party website at least one Liberal Democrat candidate has an approach to the EU which is very similar to the Green Party.
This is what the party website says about Joe Otten – note in particular the last sentence; it is extraordinarily similar to the Green Party position —
Joe Otten grew up in difficult and deprived circumstances, but worked hard at school and went to university. After graduating from Sheffield University he has worked in IT, run his own business, and taken a career break to look after his children.
Throughout all this, Joe has engaged in politics in a spirit of active citizenship, campaigning on issues including the environment, transport and political reform. He is passionate – from experience – about the power of education to transform lives, and the need for politicians to understand what it is like to live on a low income.
Joe has fought for local services including buses, post offices and libraries, and sought to ensure that the voice of local people is heard in the town hall, as it must also be heard in the European Parliament.
Joe lives in Sheffield, representing Dore and Totley on the City Council. He is determined that the European Union, properly reformed, will advance British interests and influence, and spread democratic values in the world.