Well, Norman Baker’s proposals to scrap the Oath of Allegiance certainly caused a stir on Liberal Democrat Voice, didn’t they? Jennie Rigg and others were certainly most riled by the ‘crawling out of the woodwork’ of ‘little republicans’. She feels that the role of the monarchy in a constitutional monarchy state is ‘largely symbolic’. It is thus perhaps not surprising that she is vexed by the importance attached to the issue of a head of state she sees as largely symbolic. However, thankfully others do not share her view and as the Daily Mail has recently reported, the oath may very well face a legal challenge:
“Republic is planning a legal challenge, saying the current rules discriminate against Catholics, Muslims, Sikhs and members of other religions who object to swearing allegiance to the head of the Church of England.”
So, why does everybody get so worked up about who cuts the ribbons on various hospitals, stations and an assortment of other buildings? Everything starts at the beginning, and we all accept that the monarch is the head of state, so the republican challenge is really not just to the monarchy itself but to the entire form of the constitutional monarchy state. During the discussion I frequently raised the question of the powers held under Royal Prerogative. Some of these powers are formally held by the monarch but are exercised by the executive in its name. So, when Parliament was marginalised by Tony Blair in his rush to war in Iraq it was a result of the existence of Royal Prerogative because the declaration of war is a power held to the monarch which of course can then be wielded by the executive.
Powers that are still held by the monarch under Royal Prerogative include
- The appointment and dismissal of ministers
- The dissolution of parliament and the calling of elections
- declaration of war;
- The declaration of an emergency;
- The expulsion of a foreign national from the United Kingdom;
- The appointment of bishops and archbishops in the Church of England
So, we can already see why fixed-term Parliaments will never happen under the current form of state. It is a small wonder that the current government hasn’t thought to declare itself in an emergency but more seriously we can easily see the means by which the will of the people could be circumvented. Constitutions are supposed to protect the people against the state but Britain’s current arrangement enshrines the rights of an unelected head of state to live at the taxpayers’ expense, exercise power she has never earned, and of an over mighty executive to trample all over Parliamentary democracy. Also, we can also see the means through which Royal Prerogative undermines civil liberties. Hardly ideal from a liberal and democratic point of view is it?
All of this is to leave aside the question of the House of Lords which builds guaranteed representation for one faith, hereditary peers and political apparatchiks into the legislative process. Needless to say this is the spawn of the constitutional monarchy state too. All of this is a far cry from the 6 O’ Clock News fantasy of a monarch who cuts ribbons and poses in funny hats for touristy photos. Instead what we see is a monarch who sits at the core of what David Cameron might very well call Britain’s broken democracy. Republicanism is not just about removing the monarch it is an integral part of the campaign for a liberal and democratic Britain. Jennie and others may well belittle its significance but in doing so they are dramatically missing the point.
So, what are the alternatives? Well I am against an elected President because with a properly empowered and reformed legislature there is no need for one. Besides I think the best government has the minimal separation between executive and legislative functions. If there must be a ceremonial head of state, something that I am personally unsure there needs to be, then it should arise from the legislature so that leaves either the Prime Minister or a figure elected by the legislative body. Campaigning for a British republic is part of campaigning for consistent democracy. It is totally inconsistent to bemoan the electoral system, the subordination of parliament, the erosion of civil liberties, the lack of fixed-term parliaments and so forth and not follow that through in calling for the complete overhaul of the entire way of governing Britain.



25 Comments
I agree with that, but I’m not sure how it leads you to conclude that you must call for a republic. There are plenty of countries out there with a written constitution and a constitutional monarchy. The key, surely, is a written constitution – the identity of the head of state is a second order issue surely?
I note in passing, incidently, that Republic does not call for electoral reform, a stronger parliament, civil liberties or fixed term parliaments. So surely by your logic, they are being inconsistent as well? I’m not criticising them and indeed am a bit of an apathetic republican myself, but to suggest that you can’t have any of these things without first addressing the question of who the head of state should be is a bit of an over reach.
(Declared interest: I do work for an organisation that calls for electoral reform, a stronger parliament, civil liberties and fixed term parliaments. And a written constitution.)
Who the head of state is doesn’t bother me that much, as long as we have a decent written constitution and I quite like the queen.
Keep the monarchy around, they are good for tourism. Even if monarchy costs a lot, a president will cost nearly as much maybe more when you need to factor in things like the cost of running the elections every so often.
All executive powers should be stripped from the monarch. As a consequence of that they’ll also be stripped from the executive who’s only entrusted with them. With those powers gone we might finally end up with a proper constitution that outlines just who can do what when how and for how long.
The biggest threat to the monarchy in my view is Charles and once he ascends to the thrown we might be a republic quicker than anyone thought possible.
I agree with the broad thrust of this article which is that the Monarchy acts as a smokescreen for so much that ails our democracy. But I don’t get it when people say they don’t want an elected President. As if an unelected President is better? Because that’s what we’ve got. His name is Gordon Brown, and he wasn’t even directly elected by his own party. The Queen is irrelevant. She just waves, and allows people to pretend that we don’t really have a President, even though he (Gordon Brown) goes off to sign treaties and do all the things that Presidents do. Please can we stop deluding ourselves that:
a) we don’t need a President, or
b) there is something to be gained from pretending that the President is really someone else, or
c) that perhaps we can call them by a different name and that will make things OK
It’s all so much rearranging the deckchairs. I want a directly elected President. Period. The Lib Dem constitutional convention can set out the limits of his power. But I want a directly elected President who speaks his mind. The Queen must go. But already I can hear the cries of protest. You’re not seriously suggesting that we should be like the French?! Whatever next?! Separation of church and state?! . . .
I agree with Laurence (see? It does happen…), and so – to be fair – does Republic.
The Royal Prerogative refers to the residual common law powers of the Crown. These are incapable of extension, and are in fact in retreat. A quarter of a century ago, there was no statutory basis for the employment of civil servants or for MI5 and MI6. Not any more. A quarter of a century ago, the Royal Perogative was held not to be susceptible to judicial review. Not any more, so long as the power in question is justiciable.
All these powers are exercised in practice by Ministers of the Crown, who can be held accountable for how they do exercise them in Parliament. None is exercised personally by the Monarch.
I think we need to put the remaining prerogative powers on a statutory basis, then take a look at constitutional conventions, which are even more slippery than the Royal Prerogative because they are entirely uncodified.
The issue of the monarchy is quite separate.
“So, when Parliament was marginalised by Tony Blair in his rush to war in Iraq”
You have a strange recollection of what happened! I remember a lengthy, indepth debate, with many impressive and passionate speaches (most particularly from the late Robin Cook) and a series of votes that ended up authorising the invasion.
Were you out of the country at the time?
The Queen is not a figurehead. Justice in this country is administered in the Queen’s name (ie the crown versus), taxes are gathered in her name (HMRC), defense is organised by the Royal Navy, Royal Air Force and many regiments of the Army are styled Royal, where defense is the Queens personal responsibility which has been delegated to the cabinet. I am allowed to travel abroad “in the name of her majesty”. Laws are not laws until the Queen signs them.
Furthermore the Queen is a net contributor to taxes through the crown estates (whereby the full surplus of these estates are given to the Chancellor in exchange for the civil list last year the Queen donated £211m and received £40m)
They prerogative allows for efficient responses to emergencys and wars and allows. I can see no legal or constiutional problem with the current situation.
As far as I am concerned I owe my loyalty as a subject (I am not a citizen) to the Queen. Her children and grandchildren have fought in recent wars, while none of the children ministers or shadow ministers have fought. If someone is elected to parliament and refuses to swear allegiance to the crown they are not an MP.
She is the personification of our nation as her son will be when she passes. Interfere with this at your peril. As an Admiral once said to me “if they (MPs) ever try to get rid of the Queen we shall sail up the Thames and arrest the lot of them”.
“She is the personification of our nation as her son will be when she passes.”
So . . . we’re going to go from a nation of posh old ladies to a nation of village idiots?
“She is the personification of our nation as her son will be when she passes.”
Not sure the respect will pass to her son! The Queen is generally well regarded for the way she carries out her duties even by those who don’t think she should hold her position. Charles carries much less respect and socieity now is much less deferential than it was in the days of other Prince’s of Wales who had similar flaws.
Maybe the editors of LDV can succeed where the Guardian failed and get prosecuted under the Treason Felony Act for allowing this to be published 🙂
. . . and I fail to see how sending one’s children to war is a mark of courage. Going to war oneself maybe . . .
The queen is a figure head, just as the german president is a figure head. No law in germany is valid until the president signs it, but he has no real power and has to be party neutral, i believe; just as our queen is (and should be).
Our queen is a head of state with essentially zero executive power (more through modern custom and any actual law from what I understand), which I think is how it should be for the head of state. The prime minister or the chancellor get on with running the country, leaving the president to handle the parades and the ribbon cuttings and troop inspections.
What Laurence seems to want is a directly elected head of the executive, i.e. a directly elected prime minister. I have no problems with that. We can have both a ceremonial head of state, with basically no real power (as we do now) and still have a government system that allows us to directly elect our PM.
The majority of power my view though should always though lie with parliament and the president should be elected from the majority party. If it doesn’t if we have an executive that’s split from the legislature and potentially the ruling party, as it is in the US, then we’ll get the same deadlocks and the same infighting and inability to get anything done.
She served with the Land Girls during WW2, unable to serve on the front line, but she stayed in London during the Blitz. She is the person who is thought of when Britain is mentioned, not Brown or Blair. Look at the greeting she recieves on foreign visits, positive. Not like the protests anyother politician recieves when travelling.
“What Laurence seems to want is a directly elected head of the executive.”
No, I don’t think that is what I want, but in any case I’m going to leave the details to the constitutional convention. What I absolutely do not want is a ribbon-cutter – a function which could be carried out with great aplomb by an anamatronic dummy. I want the President to speak his mind, and speak for the nation. He can be a party man or an independent. It’s all up to us. (He can also be a woman.)
“She served with the Land Girls during WW2.”
Do they rank above or below the Big Girl’s Blouses?
“Not like the protests any other politician receives when travelling.”
She doesn’t get protests because she never says or does anything. There are none I admire less than those who have, or appear to have, no opinions. We were put on this Earth to have a big argument!
Chris Smith is an authoritarian conservative who seeks to preserve ancient hierarchies in the modern world which he (presumably) considers have been imposed upon us by God. He is entitled to his views.
Where he errs is in believing that (1) the Royal Prerogative actually has anything to do with the Monarch (it doesn’t – it is a device to enable Ministers to bypass Parliament), (2) the Queen spends her day signing bills (she doesn’t – a commissioner does it as a matter of routine – the Queen has never refused the Royal Assent and could not do and stay on the throne) and (3) the Queen is the “embodiment of the nation” when the institution of the monarchy was imposed on this country by French settlers.
Authoritarian conservatives such as Chris Smith are clearly happy to be feudal serfs. Liberals aspire to be free citizens.
BTW, the UK armed forces don’t actually defend Britain these days. They further the interests of the US military-industrial-petrochemical complex; which is what they are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan at this very moment.
Sesenco
(1) The prerogatives powers are “the name for the residue of discretionary power left at any moment in the hands of the Crown, whether such power be in fact exercised by the King himself or by his Ministers”
These are the monarchs powers, and are excerised in her name.
(2) My understanding of Royal Assent is that Letters Patent are issued by the Queen to the Speakers in the two houses. The speakers formally announce the Assent. And the bill is considered law when the announcements have been made. However before the seakers make the announcements the have to recieve the letters which have been signed by the Queen (hence the phrase “signed into law”)
I agree the Queen has not refused consent, (last person was Queen Anne in 1708), but in 1999 she has refused to allow a debate in Parliament on a 10 minute bill, so these powers can be considered active.
(3) I am confused as to your point here. I believed that the monarchy predated the Norman invasion and was believed to have started with the Kingdoms of Wessex and Mercia (dating from the 6th century) and was developed as a response to Saxon (Germanic) invasion.
I will admit I am a conservative, but I am not authoritarian I believe the state should not interefere in people’s personal lives. Yes I respect the Queen, but I listen to politicians and I get angry when I see debates like these organised by politicians who are doing it purely for publicity, when there are so many more important issues they should be dealing with.
I agree that ceremonial duty is boring, but so is due process and there’s no way I’d want to get rid of that.
I think it is important for any symbolic figure to be a unifying figure – which the crown has been in times of national crisis – because when it has been a divisive, partisan figure it has brought about a constitutional crisis.
But I’d like to our figurehead to be able to show a lead, even when remaining silent on issues. Personally I’d like the monarch to attend sessions of Parliament in a non-statutory capacity and sit-in on debates in the House of Lords – even if he/she is precluded from voting on the matter it would show concern and involvement on matters of importance to the people.
FWIW I’d vote to keep our monarch in order to retain and continue our historic legacy of reforming the institution, not on any abstract academic grounds.
I also think the fixed-term parliament campaign is misguidedly opportunistic, because it means we only get the chance to hold a government to account once every term, rather than enabling parliament to hold the government to account on a continuous daily basis.
Reform is a continuous process, not an event. So however impatient or frustrated we might get about the weaknesses of the current system we shouldn’t let it cloud our judgement and turn us into reactionaries and revolutionaries.
I see no reason to remove the Queen. Most of the Commonwealth countries retain the Queen but have a written constitution with fixed parliaments etc. There is an argument concerning residual powers of the monarch, but she is also a check and balance on the constitution just in case you have mad men in parliament, so certain emergency powers as guardian of the constitution e.g. the ability to veto bills (although this could be modified to only relate to the constitution). The problem isn’t that we have a constitutional monarchy, but that it hasn’t been defined within a written legal document. Her role is to advise and warn the prime minister and given her experience that is invaluable. With elected presidents party loyalty comes into play, which the queen does not have.
Ceremonial presidents are completely pointless. There is no sense of history with them and also they can never be a unifying force because their presence is so temporary, which is the role of the head of state.
finally, speaking as a lawyer, Republic’s challenge will be futile. it is not the role of the courts to interfere with parliament’s decisions, which is sovereign. You swear alleigance to the Queen in her constitutional role, not in her religious role, which I agree needs to be scrapped.
I think the lib dems should be focusing on a written constitution not focusing arguments on something that is of little significance anyway.
Her role is to advise and warn the prime minister and given her experience that is invaluable.”
Why do you believe that the suitable selection process for this figure is the historical institution of inherited power?
Richy Mac wrote:
“but she is also a check and balance on the constitution just in case you have mad men in parliament”
But what about mad monarchs? We’ve had our share of them. Anyway, I thought it was for the courts to keep the Executive in check, not the monarch.
“Her role is to advise and warn the prime minister and given her experience that is invaluable.”
Eh? Valuable experience of what? Dog breeding? Managing large estates? The first two Georges were incapable of advising the Prime Minister, since they spoke only German.
“it is not the role of the courts to interfere with parliament’s decisions, which is sovereign.”
Yes, that’s the stuff we used to hear from Viscount Simonds, but there are cases in the books where the courts have done just that. In R v Secretary of State for Transport ex parte Factortame, the House of Lords disapplied a provision of the Merchant Shipping Act 1988 – “a naked usurpation of the legislative function”, as Viscount Simonds would have put it.
Senseco,
I’d say 56 years in a job gives you some experience and insight into it’s function and practise, even if you don’t value it very highly.
I agree that we’ve had mad monarchs, but we’ve also had mad politicians and the public has taken odd views during different periods of history – all of which we judge by today’s mood.
If you pause for a moment of calm reflection I’m sure you can think of different circumstances where constitutional changes of such magnitude have been handled well and handled terribly, so before you restate your conclusion with such force again perhaps you could revise your arguments to ensure they follow their own logic.
This debate will go no where while the current queen is on the throne. She has done to good a job. If you had an election for President tommorow Elizabeth Windsor would romp home on first preferences. ( She’d get mine)
What is interesting and Laurence hints at is what Happens when she goes. My instinct is Charles will be problematic in all sorts of ways and will provide an interlude between Elizabeth and William who has clearly been touched by Dianas star dust.
I would make a couple of points.
1. Adopting the heirarchy of needs approach you would touch the Monarchy untill the unfinished business of 1911 is dealt with. The real danager is that labour have no time left to complete reform and an incomng tory government won’t see it as a priority. Nick Clegg should call for a referendum on a fully elected second chamber to be held on the same day as the next general election. While it make take a few more years to implimentit would end the debate for ever and give enormous moral impetus to those campaigning for reform.
2. nearly all the problems darrell sets out in is article can be dealt with by a written constition rather than abolition of the Monarchy. See Canada,Australia, New Zealand.
3. Don’t underestimate the scale of opposition to touching the Monarchy. History seems to be excelerating rather than having ended. people will not let go easierly and perhaps they shouldn’t.
4. My thinking on this has been deeply influenced by seein our Lord Mayorality operate. For the price of some Gold chains, a limo and an annual cloathing allowance you get a fuly functioning Civic head. Despite the (elected) post holder changing every year people respond amazingly to this civic representitive at almost every kind of function. While this sounds like an anti monarchy arguement ( anyone can do the job) it also makes me realise that lots of people fel an instinctive need for some one to cut ribbons.
Wow. Perhaps I should actually come and look at this site more often if ppieces are going to be (badly) written just to attack lil ol me.
“others do not share her view”
That’s kind of the point, really. Most people do. Just because it’s about 50/50 within the party doesn’t mean it’s not 90/10 in the country at large.
I meant to comment on this when I saw it, but appears I forgot. But David said everything I would’ve at 2.28 today so we’re good.
Darrell, you have some good points about prerogative powers, reserved powers, etc. But conflating them with the need to remove the monarch is devaluing and lessening your argument. There are far too many committed royalists and monarchists in the country to make the republican position even worth fighting over, as the Australians found when they had their referendum.
We need a constitutional convention, and the Crown powers would need to be addressed as part of that. But attempts to abolish the monarch are doomed to fail, I’d rather put effort into the the fights we need to win, such as dealing with the actual problems you highlight.
Was going to comment..but decided against…largely due to the feeling that I’m back at our sixth form’s debating society…sorry
;@D