The Welsh government has put forward plans to ban the use of e-cigarettes in enclosed public spaces. The BBC reports:
People will be banned from using e-cigarettes in enclosed places such as restaurants, pubs and at work in Wales, under a new public health law.
The plan, likely to come into force in 2017 and the first in the UK, has already divided opinion among health and medical groups, including some anti-smoking campaigners.
But ministers say it is a “balance of risk” and will stop children smoking.
This does not seem to be in any way evidence based.
Liberals really don’t like banning things unless there is a very good reason to do so. It’s therefore not really a surprise to see that Welsh Liberal Democrat leader and both federal leadership candidates have totally condemned the government’s plans:
Kirsty said:
The evidence for this decision is wafer thin. Banning things just for the sake of it isn’t a position any Government should take.
The Welsh Liberal Democrats believe all decisions should be evidence based, which is why we are opposed to this ban. There is very little evidence to date that e-cigs emit anything more harmful than water vapour. Therefore any ban on e-cigs is completely unjustifiable.
We often hear how people are using e-cigarettes to help them give up smoking. There is a high chance this heavy handed approach from the Welsh Labour Government could actually be counter-productive.
And here’s what the leadership candidates had to say:
I agree with @Kirsty_Williams that a ban on using e-cigarettes in enclosed public places is bad policy http://t.co/XLbWs2qpBi
— Tim Farron (@timfarron) June 9, 2015
.@tfjo I don't support e-cig ban. Would be extraordinary to do this – no scientific evidence when we know they help people give up tobacco
— Norman Lamb (@normanlamb) June 9, 2015
Let’s hope that common sense prevails on this one.
* Caron Lindsay is Editor of Liberal Democrat Voice and blogs at Caron's Musings. You can find her on Bluesky at caronmlindsay.bsky.social
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36 Comments
Whilst e-cigarettes do help people give up smoking there is evidence that they are being marketed at younger people to get them to take up the habit & a bill in Scotland is looking to ban this. http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/e-cigarette-bill-welcomed-by-campaigners-1-3793929
Many workplaces ban e-cigarettes because they trigger fire and smoke alarms and therefore put people at Fire Risk. Just as e-cigarette smokers have certain freedom so too do the non-smokers around them who dont want to be exposed to any vapour/aerosol out of personal choice. What of their rights? Am I the only person in the party alarmed at the direction of travel in the party re: smoking and drugs policy which seems to want to put the freedom of smokers and drug users above the interests of the public health issues and concerns of doctors. In the USA Middle and high school e-cigarette users tripled from 4.5 percent in 2013 to 13.4 percent in 2014, according to the 2014 National Youth Tobacco Survey. We should avoid knee-jerk reactions to attempts to improve peoples health without talking to doctors and industry professionals. It seems there is growing industry lobby promoting vaping as well as legal highs and drugs legalisation.
Am I missing something. I do not like smokers of any sort in a public place like a pub, eating place and especially at work, where I am eating or working.
On the face of things I reckon the Welsh Government may have this right.
I remember the 60’s/70’s/80”s/90’s ….etc when the smoking debate was driven by companies claiming that no evidence existed to link smoking to lung cancer etc. The front men for these companies still push the same nonsense. It is better banned until proven safe.
It is also a gateway drug to make “smoking” cool again. We will see an increase in cigarette sales.
I object to the atmosphere in a pub/ restaurant etc when people are vaping,
Well done Wales.
…on another note…£60,000 target exceeded for People versus Carmichael case.
I agree with the three previous commenters – this all seems an attempt to normalise the act of smoking. E-cigs are used by some to get them off tobacco which is a good thing, but they are also being marketed at young people to get them to start smoking e-cigs as a thing in itself, to “look cool”, getting them hooked on nicotine and protecting the tobacco companies’ income streams (as the tobacco companies are in many cases behind the e-cig companies).
No evidence at all for the comments above. People saying ‘I think this might lead to this’ is a bad way to crest policy, it needs to be evidence led.
Quite surprised to see people supporting the Welsh government here. The logic of the pub smoking ban, which does not apply to all public areas (unlike this proposal), is that passive bystanders should not be exposed to carcinogenic smoke. That logic does not apply here, for obvious reasons. I support the pub smoking ban, I can’t support this.
I’m not sure that the replacement argument given by previous commenters is really very sensible, it seems a very emotional argument to me. My (very minimal) reading suggests that most vapers are current or ex-smokers (trying to quit in the latter case) and that use of ecigarettes among children seems to be at the cost of use of other tobacco (so is surely the lesser of two evils?). I fail to even see solid evidence of a problem here, much less evidence that this heavy handed approach would be effective or even fail to be counterproductive.
So. Big thumbs down with me. Sounds like an extreme knee-jerk reaction and hopefully good sense will win out in time.
“It seems there is growing industry lobby promoting vaping as well as legal highs and drugs legalisation.”…. there are also a lot of individual citizens seeing sense after the decades of abject failure of policies like prohibition.
As far as I can tell the only message the reactionary Welsh government sends that it has no intention of adhering to the harm principle; instead preferring the deliberate arbitrary (and wrongheaded) abnormalisition of whole groups of people they disapprove of – like the control freaks that they are.
I agree with the ban .. I too dislike seeing people vaping in public places.
In my home town I have seen a vast increase in people vaping, many of those who didn’t smoke before, as vaping is now seen as ‘cool’.
Well done Kirsty for opposing this. Typical knee-jerk statism from the Labour party, with no evidence to back up their claims.
On the occasions that I have been in meetings or sharing a car with somebody smoking e-cigarettes I have felt a tightness in my chest, a quickening of my pulse and an uncomfortable physical sensation that is a little like anxiety.
Consequently I am happy to support a ban on vaping in the workplace and by extension other closed public spaces.
Smoking is a nasty smelly habit, causes harm to oneself and to others, is highly addictive and unnecessarily costs the NHS billions every year. E-cigarettes are just encouraging the idea that smoking is ok and the jury is still out about its long term effects. Anything that makes smoking abnormal and culturally unacceptable is a good move imo. We don’t like people spitting in public places and that’s nowhere near as harmful or costly. Smoking in any form should be as culturally unacceptable as spitting. Sure, there are people who are weaning themselves off smoking by using e cigs but this will help them wean themselves all the more quickly. And a new generation of youngsters should be growing up in a world where people simply do not have cigarettes in any public place.
Peter, you want to remove other people’s freedoms because they make you anxious? Wow. Remind us not to live in the same country as you.
Simply not what he said MBoy.
Some e cigarettes don’t have any nicotine in them, did everyone realise that?
@MBoy “you want to remove other people’s freedoms because they make you anxious?”
Not what I said at all. I described physical symptoms that felt like anxiety. I don’t know if it was doing me harm, but it was certainly uncomfortable.
I would guess that it was simply due to inhaling the stimulant nicotine that was in the vapour, though I have never noticed it when with real smokers. Kirsty Williams’ line that “There is very little evidence to date that e-cigs emit anything more harmful than water vapour.” sounds nonsensical since vapers would not need e-cigarettes in the first place if there was nothing else in the vapour, though perhaps it depends on whether or not nicotine and the other chemical ingredients are considered harmful. At least “very little evidence” is better than Lamb’s “no evidence”.
I would not be happy with doctors, nurses and midwives vaping in the wards or teachers and nursery nurses vaping in class rooms, but can I assume that you would not be in the least bit anxious about that?
P.S. I should also add hospital visitors at the bedside of a patient to the list of people I would not want to see vaping.
Exactly his rationale David. No different to people who get anxious near women dressed in burkas, or to people who get anxious near groups of black teenagers. I get anxious near people who take my liberties, so you lot are in trouble…
@MBoy “Exactly his rationale David.”
Again, I was not anxious, but I felt a strange physical sensation that was uncomfortable and it was a little like how I would imagine an anxiety attack would feel. If that does not help describe how I felt then I am happy to withdraw the word anxiety rather than confuse the issue. Aroused, excited, stimulated, might be less emotive alternatives for you.
Peter Watson, “Aroused, excited, stimulated, ”
Oooh you’re making e cigarettes sound like some of the products in my Spam folder 😉
Peter Watson, joking aside, I assume that they tiny particles of toxic chemicals and heavy metal released by the e cigarette had an adverse reaction on you.
It should be noted that the long term effects of vaping are unknown and that vaping can also be addictive. By the time we realise what the long term effects are, people may already be addicted, as was the case with smoking. Why take the risk?
Theakes said, “am I missing something . . . .” – yes you are, by definition vaping is not smoking.
Several people have stated that the manufacturers are positioning their advertising so as to attract younger people. The manufacturers are, but apparently all the evidence is, is that there are very few who use e-cigarettes who did not smoke beforehand. I confess, I have not seen the studies but all the news media have had stories stating it is so.
I support the ban. I visted a cafe recently where four people sat around a table using e-cigarettes and blowing out thick clouds of vapour over everyone else. I haven’t been made to feel so uncomfortable for a long time. These people might just as well have been smoking ‘real’ cigarettes. The health risks of e-cigarettes has still to be assessed and at the end of the day despite the Welsh ban they can still be used in places where tobacco cigarettes are allowed. Surely that’s the point of them? They are a tobacco substitute!
E Cigs are banned on Stagecoach Buses. Social aspects of smoking. Remember when first Joined Party Back in 1980s people smoked Cigs at regional Conference in East Midlands. No smoking put into Standing orders. Now Vaping should been included.For reason Seen to be Cool etc.
Well done Wales, along with the Czech Republic who have voted in similar legislation. I also find vapping an unpleasant experience to sit through, and particularly so when people use these devices at the dining table,be it in Restaurants,Pubs or even homes. What really concerns me though is the possibility,not to say probability, that in no time frame at all,users of these ugly contraptions will be inhaling many a different substance that could be bordering on the criminal – derivatives of Cocaine,Heroin and goodness knows what Class A-B-and C drugs. It is becoming a slippery slope this caper: lets stop it here and now.
Oh for all the comments about smoking VAPING is not smoking
The devices use vegetable oil and food grade flavours and not all contain nicotine and those that do it is a tiny amount.
The result is water vapour
You can fill an e-cig with water if you like and puff that
It is not smoke these things are producing it is as far from cigarettes as the pony and trap is from a formula one car
Please inform yourselves before spooling out comments
I don’t support the ban. I think banning is the default setting of busy bodies.
Well done Kirsty Williams!!!
If the proposal was to ban e-cigarettes altogether, those who argue that these devices actually reduce smoking by helping people to stop might have a point. However the idea is merely to ban the use of e-cigarettes inside buildings. As it is already illegal for smoking to take place inside buildings, how does it restrict in any way the hoped-for transfer from cigarettes to e-cigarettes? Such beneficial substitution would presumably take place in locations where smoking is at present permitted. “Vaping” indoors would not be a substitution but a new practice altogether. I for one do not want “vapour” being blown in my face when I eat at a restaurant and I applaud the Welsh government action. In no way can it be alleged that it limits or discourages smokers from opting for changing to vaping in any location where smoking can at present lawfully take place.
“Liberals really don’t like banning things unless there is a very good reason to do so.”
But as Denis Loretto rightly points out, the Welsh government is not proposing to ban e-cigarettes – only to restrict their use in certain places.
This is not a “ban” for the same kind of reason that you recently used (rightly) to argue that deleting posts from Lib Dem Voice is not the same as banning free speech…
Yes that’s a very good point – there is no ban on e cigarettes. People are free to vape wherever they can smoke. So why is LDV posting such misleading information?
Sadly my liberal side loses out to my healthcare worker side on this. The lack of evidence either way makes me feel it isn’t worth taking the risk.
@ Stuart, @Phyllis – so you would be fine with a ban on free speech indoors then? After all, it isn’t a “total ban.”
@Sally “The lack of evidence either way makes me feel it isn’t worth taking the risk” – so much for evidence based policy then. Let’s ban everything there is inconclusive evidence for! (PS In fact there is plenty of evidence that the vapour of e-cigarettes contains very little harmful substances – concentrations so low as to be irrelevant compared to background levels of pollution)
@MBoy ” In fact there is plenty of evidence that the vapour of e-cigarettes contains very little harmful substances – concentrations so low as to be irrelevant compared to background levels of pollution)”
I’m glad that you accept that it does contain harmful substances, but I don’t know how you go from there to believing there is a liberal right to blow those harmful substances into the faces of other people in an enclosed space.
Those who oppose restricting the use of e-cigs in enclosed public places and label such a move illiberal fail to recognise that there is a balance to be struck between the desires of smokers and non-smokers. The question to be asked in this case is whether the nuisance caused to non- smokers justifies restrictions on smokers. I would argue it does, but I accept that it is a difficult balance. However the argument regarding the decriminalisation of drugs is a totally different matter, since no one who supports decriminalisation is suggesting that smoking, say cannabis, in public encloses espaces should be allowed.
Those who oppose restricting the use of e-cigs in enclosed public places and label such a move illiberal fail to recognise that there is a balance to be struck between the desires of smokers and non-smokers…. in the same way as those who support a ban fail to recognise people who are using e-cigs aren’t smoking.
We were always told that there was no evidence that smoking caused cancer – and then look what happened. People became addicted and had massive health problems. Whenever there is a big industry behind a product I do question the information we are given. Until vaping has been around long enough to give us reliable data then it is best to err on the cautious side. It can’t be true that vaping is just blowing out air and water, because how would it work then to get people off smoking? Anyway, do we really want people sitting at dinner blowing out their spittle or nasal mucous in our direction, more than necessary? People really don’t need to vape around other people in enclosed spaces, it’s the same nasty habit as spitting (which involves no toxins but is still socially repugnant). Why do the people arguing for vaping on here not make the same arguments for spitting? After all it’s an infringement on personal liberty. Or using snuff in public ? No-one does that anymore and I’m sure people would feel uncomfortable if they did.