I travel up and down to London pretty frequently. I haven’t often had a problem getting a seat on the East Coast mainline – and when there has been an issue, it’s usually because there has been some extreme weather issue and two trains worth of people have been decanted into one train.
So when I saw that Jeremy Corbyn had had to spend a journey to Newcastle on the floor of a train, I was a bit surprised but didn’t let it distract me from enjoying my holiday.
Today’s development in that story is worthy of some comment though. It appears that the Labour leader could have had a seat on the train after all. Virgin’s media people have ridden a convoy of coaches and horses through his claims. In an unusual step, they have released CCTV footage and said:
CCTV footage taken from the train on August 11 shows Mr Corbyn and his team walked past empty, unreserved seats in coach H before walking through the rest of the train to the far end, where his team sat on the floor and started filming.
The same footage then shows Mr Corbyn returning to coach H and taking a seat there, with the help of the onboard crew, around 45 minutes into the journey and over two hours before the train reached Newcastle. Mr Corbyn’s team carried out their filming around 30 minutes into the journey.
There were also additional empty seats on the train (the 11am departure from King’s Cross) which appear from CCTV to have been reserved but not taken, so they were also available for other passengers to sit on.
And so the Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition is caught out in a bit of a whopper. That’s not going to help him the next time he has to catch Her Majesty’s Government out in one of their substantially more serious errors.
Corbyn is far from the first person to create a political stunt. I remember reading a story in Mark Pack and Ed Maxfield’s about to updated and re-released book 101 ways to win an election that one intrepid group of political activists dragged the same dilapidated sofa all round a city to photograph it and put it in leaflets to symbolise fly-tipping. However, to do something in these days when you can be caught out by technology is a wee bit daft. And doing it when you are the Leader of the Opposition just invites comparison with The Thick of It. Having said that, Malcolm Tucker was a bit more savvy and would probably have gone and found a Southern train to do it on instead. On many of their services, a seat is a luxury and even a train that runs when and where it should is worthy of comment.
This is a great Westminster bubble process story but it might have wider implications for Jeremy Corbyn’s chances of re-election. The True Corbynistas, of course, are railing (sorry) at the messenger, accusing the Telegraph, which was the first out of the blocks with this, of right wing bias. This is reminiscent of the cybernats calling out any reporter who ever disagreed with the SNP or Yes campaign on anything for bias. If Liberal Democrats had these kind of people, no doubt they would have been calling for the pigs who detracted from a Willie Rennie interview during the Scottish election to be turned into sausages.
The anti-Corbyn side or sides of the Labour party will of course use this as yet another example of leadership team incompetence, something which started when his first reshuffle descended into farce.
But what about the armchair members who don’t spend every waking moment embroiled in a febrile war of ideological purity? Will they be impressed by the distinct lack of honesty in Corbyn’s comments? Might they either not bother voting or cast their votes for Smith instead? Could this be the moment when common sense prevailed and ordinary Labour members, even those who think that Corbyn is a decent, principled bloke, realised that his leadership was completely untenable? We’ll find out in another few weeks.
UPDATE:
Those funny people in the Lib Dem digital department have been at it again.
I have to say that I’m a bit disappointed, as I liked the previous one which mocked the warfare between Palmerston and Larry the cats.
* Caron Lindsay is Editor of Liberal Democrat Voice and blogs at Caron's Musings. You can find her on Bluesky at caronmlindsay.bsky.social
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87 Comments
Q. Could train-gate derail Corbyn’s leadership campaign?
A. Yes it very well could.
Unless he can come up with a better explanation than he has so far, then Corbyn really ought to withdraw from the contest (shades of Andrea Leadsom??).
I suspect that he may well not withdraw, and I also suspect that a majority of the Labour Party electorate could be stupid enough to still vote for him, but the simple fact is that this is the sort of debacle that, politically, you never live down.
The trouble with using a Southern train would trying to find enough space to do the filming. And you wouldn’t have any privacy, so it would be obvious that the story was being manufactured. Looks like they found a spot well away from the prying public with their phone-cameras.
You pays your money and you takes your choice.
http://www.beyondtheheadlines.co.uk/2016/08/23/the-london-to-newcastle-virgin-train-was-ram-packed/
Ah, a bit of Corbyn bashing is always fun.
How do you reckon it compares with Nick Clegg’s photo opportunity signed PLEDGE about student fees, and the subsequent ‘I’m sorry video’, Caron ?
https://www.theguardian.com/education/mortarboard/2014/jul/28/sheffield-hallam-students-vote-out-nick-clegg
Oh, and wasn’t there something about a VAT bombshell ?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nick-clegg/11143277/Liberal-Democrat-conference-the-many-broken-promises-of-Nick-Clegg.html
I find John Peters post more compelling. Glass houses and stones come to mind.
PS How are your hedges, Simon ?
I had to sit on the floor of a Saturday morning Liverpool to London Virgin train going to the Social Liberal Forum Conference. It was over booked and first class full of standard passengers placed there by the guard. oops sorry train manager. So even if it was a publicity stunt, which I doubt, these things are real and need to be highlighted.
Nationalising is not the answer, the problem is generated by the huge passenger growth on the West Coast main line generated by the improvement in services since privatisation. HS2 is very much needed.
@David Raw
“PS How are your hedges, Simon ?”
Eh??!!??
“I find John Peters post more compelling.”
Does that mean that you haven’t spotted the flaws in the Beyond the Headlines article?.
Worth noting that the guard* put standard class passengers in first in order to free up seats – surely if this train had free seats such an action would not be done.
* No doubt to all be removed as the government makes all trains DOO in order to crush the RMT.
The general point – that sometimes there are not enough seats – was accurate enough.
Do LIb Dems support renationalisation or not?
I feel like it could be similar to the tuition fee reaction which means it could derail (boom boom) Corbyn’s momentum.
In reality what does anyone remember what Corbyn said? If he said he had to sit on the floor because the train was full this may well be proven to be a hastily arranged stunt that falls somewhere on the not true to lie spectrum depending on if you support him, but if he said he was sitting on the floor as many around the country do every day/week then it was perfectly accurate.
The majority of the public support bringing trains back into public hands (as does this government, just as long as those hands are Chinese or Dutch) as the majority of people have had to pay extortionate fees to sit on the floor in overly full and often late trains. Corbyn’s point stands even if he didn’t have to.
Caron. I am afraid that if you gather Southern commuters to London together we all tend to sound like that “never had it so bad” Monty Python sketch where everyone moans that they have suffered more than anyone else: “What do you mean you were sitting on the floor next to the toilet on the 6.53 to Woking? – en suite facilities that’s luxury that is! etc etc.”
Jeremy Corbyn’s experience rings true to me but of course the fact that it rings true is not enough. If he has fibbed for effect about this particular journey he is a very naughty boy.
I would suggest that http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37167700 shows Corbyn strolling by empty and unreserved seats. Beyond the Headlines were selective in their choice of image as I guess that suits their particular agenda.
In the good old days of British Rail, traveling Stoke to London as a student, I don’t recall ever getting a seat and always going prepared to sit in the vestibules. As a sometimes regular Virgin Manchester-London passenger I’ve only once not had a seat when the seat reservation system double booked a carriage and the manager immediately released seats in First. My main problem is that route is a private monopoly with ludicrous ticket prices at unregulated times. Replacing it with a public monopoly won’t help. Multiple operators competing like budget airlines would.
This will destroy any credibility Corbyn might have had as a man of principle, exposed as a cheat that voters will not be allowed to forget. Won’t necessarily stop him being re-elected Labour leader but if so it will force the hand of his fellow MPs to split away and form an alternative Labour as official Opposition. And totally avoidable had he chosen many Northern services in the North West to stage his stunt on never mind Southern.
I wish Virgin wouldn’t instruct me via a recorded message not to flush my goldfish or ex’s jumper down the loo. There are times and places when cheerful corporate mateyness are not appropriate.
On a long journey personal re-cycling of the over priced boiling water with an overpriced teabag in it on a string is more than enough trauma without the blinking goldfish.
Does anybody know Branson’s tax status, and does he have a goldfish as well as a balloon ?
“What do you mean you were sitting on the floor next to the toilet on the 6.53 to Woking? – en suite facilities that’s luxury that is! etc etc.”
Certainly is. You want to try traveling in the luggage rack on a nodding donkey Class 142 bus on bogies from Manchester to Bolton. That one has an outside toilet.
I note that, when Corbyn was highlighting passenger discomfort there was no mention on LDV…However, at any hint of Corbyn wrongdoing, WHOOSH…
As for Simon’s usual, “Corbyn really ought to withdraw from the contest”? Now if they could just have a photo of Corbyn eating a bacon sandwich???????
There is a serious issue about overcrowding on some rail services. Not sure how nationalisation would change that.
On the specific the fact that we hear different versions of what happened from the Corbyn side is … intriguing. “Staff moved people around” (how does that create more seats?); “a family was upgraded to First” (presumably Virgin would know that?); “a seat became available after 40 minutes” (How? The train was non-stop to York!).
Corbyn didn’t lie. He sat.
I do satire, and regularly ,on a silly season story ,or out of some quite incredulous reaction to something really ludicrous, but it seems to me there is something worth forensically analysing here.
Corbyn claims there were no seats . Then the claim that there were no seats for he and his wife to sit together. He has witnesses to the latter . Why disbelieve him?
Because footage is then shown of empty seats. Corbyn claims it does not show that the few seen also includes seats with bags on , unseen. The witnesses , a few , incuding a young couple , were also sat on the floor with Corbyn. Why would they if there were seats ?
The fact is there were first class seats , but as a left wing socialists out to make a stand, rather definite pun, intended, he chose not to pay for the upgrade to make the point re peoples travails . If I was earning his salary I would not travel anything but first class. But I am not a left wing socialist , I would go private for health care if there were waiting lists and I could afford it , and send my children to private school if I were a parent and the state schools were lousy , and if , again I could afford it . The left wing socialist mindset is not one I share , nor are all of the same ilk.
Yet it does not make Corbyn a liar . The proof is not there in the footage of Virgin.
The answer , if we attempt one , to Caron in her question, is two fold . Yes it would derail his campaign if all a lie . But the lie has not been proved . So no it shall not derail his campaign ! He , unlike the trains , is unstoppable !
The sad thing about this is Corbyns publicity stunt to justify his policy on nationalisation has effectively let the rail companies off the hook because no one will know believe him.
This does have the potential to lose Corbyn the leadership race. All he had to do to win was basically do nothing but this is extremely damaging because:
a) It damages his key selling point of honesty and integrity (and, let’s be clear, the pictures make it absolutely clear that Virgin are right and he staged this – the subsequent lines from Corbyn’s press team are lame in the extreme).
b) It makes Smith’s key selling point for him. Even if you like real lefty politics, Corbyn is incompetent as a leader and can never bring the Labour party to power. The incompetence of this stunt really is stunning.
i) Why stage it on one of our less crowded lines? As many have noted, there are hundreds of services where it is not even possible to sit.
ii) What kind of press team doesn’t know that CCTV is everywhere these days (as are people with phone cameras)? Beggars belief that they thought that they could get away from it.
I find it really difficult to get into the mindset of somebody who supports Corbyn because it seems so self-evident that he is leading Labour to disaster but surely this will cause even some of the most committed to realise that this man is not a suitable leader of their party….
I don’t get why this id relevant to the Lib Dems? It’s irrelevant who leads the Labour Party as the attacks would be exactly the same whoever it was just as they were when it was Miliband and before that Kinnock. Really, we’ve just got a political orthodoxy set by the economic right and if the Lib Dems were anymore popular I suspect we would see similar attacks on Tim Farron.
I think the mindset of some of the posts here are revealing. You see only what you want to see. There is plenty of objective evidence to corroborate Corbyn’s version of events. Yet this is simply dismissed. The notion that Virgin has any political motivation (rail, NHS) to undermine Corbyn is disregarded.
The fact that Corbyn has rightly focussed on an issue that strikes a chord with many, or at least those who cannot afford 1st Class travel, is set to one side in a all too eager willingness that this is the end of the line (pun intended) for Corbyn which is just ludicrous.
It’s the same ‘see, hear only what I want to hear’ approach that resulted in years of LDV posts congratulating yourselves on the Coalition. Yet you mock Corbyn’s electoral plight.
David Raw
“Does anybody know Branson’s tax status”
I don’t, but assume he is not resident here as he seems to spend lots of time on his Island.
Not sure how where he is Tax resident affects whether a politician lied?
Those of us familiar with the Labour Party will know that they will see this as a capitalist conspiracy and make it even more likely that they will vote Corbyn.
I agree with Dave Orbison. OK – maybe Corbyn was stretching the truth a bit, I don’t know, but he was illustrating a truth. And it is certainly not the case that it is only commuter trains that are so full that it is impossible to get a seat: the last two trains I caught on a Sunday were like sardine cans.
This is a serious issue which Corbyn has messed up on by pulling a daft stunt. If you want to highlight overcrowding on trains do it on one that is genuinely overcrowded!
What are the LibDem policies on rail in particular, but also public transport in general?
Cripes – people commenting “you only see what you want to see” should take the massive log out of their own eye first! Corbyn walks past plenty of empty seats – he could have easily sat down. It simply can’t be seriously debated.
And, as for the “illustrating a truth” line, nobody is arguing about the point that many rail services are seriously overcrowded. It’s just that this one wasn’t and it is a massive fail on both integrity and competence to pretend that it was.
And as for why Lib Dems are commenting on it – Corbyn has been a disaster as an opposition leader since being elected and we can’t afford to give the Tories a free ride over Brexit, where, incidentally Owen Smith has been saying some very sensible things.
crewegwyn 23rd Aug ’16 – 10:43pm……… “Staff moved people around” (how does that create more seats?); “a family was upgraded to First” (presumably Virgin would know that?); “a seat became available after 40 minutes” (How? The train was non-stop to York!)…..
On my one train journey this year I found a seat with a coat/bag “It’s my friend’s”… I asked the person to move the items and sat..”Bums, not coats, reserve seats”…
No friend arrived; train departed….I suggested his friend must have missed the train…Man just shrugged…..
How many others want two seats for the price of one?
BTW…Virgin seemed to be upgrading their ‘definitive statement’ on a regular basis…It seems that they now admit that these ’empty seats’ had bags and coats on them; other passengers actually upheld Corbyn’s version…..
The picture above very clearly shows that, although many seats were empty, they were all marked as “reserved”, so Corbyn could not have occupied any of them. Probably a few minutes after the picture was taken, these seats would all have been full, after the people who had reserved them turned up.
So I don’t really see how this picture can possibly be said to discredit Corbyn’s story.
@ Mark Goodrich “take the log out of you eye”. Well I took the time to look at Virgin’s post. But I also looked at what others had posted whip needless to say has little Press coverage. Some video footage taken from the opposite end of the carriage shows seats occupied by children which would not be visible from the view Virgin chose to release. In addition, there are several lists on Twitter with pictures corroborating Corbyn’s position. Of course they could all be in it together- all these Trots that we are told have been sleeping.
Alternatively, we could ask what was Virgin’s motive. To persuade us that trains are not overcrowded – I’m talking 2nd class. We know that is not true. So it must have had a political dimension. Fancy that given Corbyn’s policies directly threaten Richard Branson re rail and NHS.
Then given we know that trains are overcrowded why would Corbyn ‘risk’ his credibilty by sitting on the floor in view of the public if the train was empty. Why would he need to do that?
But most astonishingly is the disproportionate hype around this nonsense leading some here to speculate this could end his election hopes. If ever there were a log in the eye, I’d suggest they are the ones who may be afflicted.
For a ‘no-hoper’ Corbyn certainly gets more adverse attention as Labour leader than would ‘Atilla the Hun’….
Millions of UK citizens in unsustainable debt, an NHS in crisis, etc…If you want people to take notice of such matters just stick the word ‘Corbyn’ somewhere in the title…
I’m amazed this was a lead article on the same day we had news of the disparity between male and female salaries – and on the same day that we learned about the other Jeremy (Hunt) and the cracks in his NHS policy.
Kindergarten politics when an admitted purchase tax evader (and chum of Blair) now has a monopoly of both East Coast and West Coast main lines produces a fuzzy video in which it is impossible to tell whether a railway carriage seat is occupied or not. He also has massive NHS care deals with a tax haven status. Any mention of that on LDV – Oooooh, no. Time people read Tom Bower’s biography of said tax exile’s activities.
Stevan Rose:
No, no, a thousand times NO!!! A rail service functions best as an integrated whole. The budget airline model, based as it is on discrete routes and compulsory booking ahead on all services (even if you don’t get a designated seat), is wholly unsuited to rail travel, where there is a mixture of interconnected long-distance and local services and travellers may use more than one service to get to their eventual destination. It would not be beneficial if passengers had to specify every service they travelled on, and had to buy a separate ticket for each one. Imagine if that were your daily commute! Some international train services in Europe already try too hard to pretend to be airlines (e.g. Eurostar, Thalys, and the RyanRail-like Ouigo), and IMO it takes away some of the putative benefits of rail travel over air travel.
Catherine Jane Crosland: Many of the reservations were for passengers who were not on the train. As seat reservations are free in this country, this happens quite a lot. Indeed the announcer specifically said that seats with reservations could be taken up. On a long-distance service, wait about 15 minutes. If a “reserved” seat is still empty, then its intended occupant probably didn’t board the train, and you can sit there.
The leader of the official opposition is running on “honesty and integrity” is caught in a lie as part of a publicity stunt.
David Raw:
Ohh, Ohh, look over there some guy doesn’t live in the UK so he doesn’t pay UK taxes.
I imagine there is less discussion of the topics you list because no one volunteered to write an article to get the discussion going. Why don’t you do that? (Or perhaps how you would like to structure the tax code).
I’m sure there would be plenty of people with opinions on those too. I imagine one of the Mods could remind you of the email address.
@Catherine Jane Crosland
“The picture above very clearly shows that, although many seats were empty, they were all marked as “reserved”, so Corbyn could not have occupied any of them. Probably a few minutes after the picture was taken, these seats would all have been full, after the people who had reserved them turned up.”
Sorry, but where would these people have “turned up” from? Do they arrive on the roof of the moving train by parachute?
So when you say that Corbyn could not have occupied any of these apparently reserved seats you are wrong. A (small, I would assume) proportion of those seats would have been people who had popped to the loo, or gone to get a coffee from the onboard shop, but the rest would either have been reservations for people not boarding until York or Darlington (at least 1 hour 53 minutes later, or two-thirds of the journey to Newcastle) or were, most likely, no-shows.
I appreciate that Corbyn and his entourage may be unused to travelling by public transport outside London, but hoi polloi could have told them that quite a lot of reserved seats are overbooked particularly by off-peak ticket holders who decide to catch a different train. I’ve done it myself many times, although on the Virgin West Coast line rather than the East Coast line.
Of course that doesn’t make a good photo-op.
Furthermore, there is another photograph which quite clearly shows unreserved seats and them being empty. It has got less coverage because it doesn’t show Corbyn clearly.
I entirely agree with Dave Orbinson when he says “given we know that trains are overcrowded why would Corbyn ‘risk’ his credibilty by sitting on the floor in view of the public if the train was empty. Why would he need to do that?”
Er, quite.
“Imagine if that were your daily commute!”
No, commuter journeys are regulated fare operations. Peak services on the West Coast Mainline are unregulated private monopoly fare operations and cost £332 return Manchester-London for a standard ticket, £475 First Class. Imagine if that was your daily commute. I’m not suggesting rail operators forced to use a mandatory booking model. I’m suggesting competition with 6 slots an hour split between them. If you’ve got £332 to spend on a ticket to ride to preserve your model good for you but it doesn’t work for most of us. No reason you can’t retain an open ticket option at a regulated fare or operators couldn’t operate company specific open tickets.
By comparison Doncaster London on open access operator Grand Central is £124 for an open return tomorrow. With other operators also significantly cheaper than West Coast. Grand Central tried for a via Manchester London service, rejected because it would hurt Virgin’s revenue. The government gets billions from Virgin Trains in franchise monopoly fees so go figure whose side they’re on.
@David Raw
“Kindergarten politics when an admitted purchase tax evader (and chum of Blair) now has a monopoly of both East Coast and West Coast main lines produces a fuzzy video in which it is impossible to tell whether a railway carriage seat is occupied or not.”
I think you’ll find that the fuzzy video was produced by Corbyn’s propaganda chief, actually. The evidence provided by Virgin was of surpringly clear still clips, although the faces of innocent third parties were fuzzied out.
But can you tell me one thing, David: why is it that you spend so much time attacking fellow Lib Dems and so much defending this thoroughly nasty piece of work currently leading the Labour Party?
(BTW if you really did mean to refer to someone as a “purchase tax evader”, you do realise that purchase tax hasn’t existed for at least 43 years)
Whatever one may think of Corbyn and this episode he is quite safe because Owen Smith is all over the place, watching him on BBC this morning filled one with mirth.
I think you will find the Labour party will unify behind Corbyn in a months time, there will be compromises on all sides. They have no alternative.
It does present us with an opportunity. Problem is still Tuition fees but fortunately people I talk to seem to now blame Cleggie and less the party. There is hope.
What is particularly annoying about Corbyn’s stunt is that there is a genuine issue with train overcrowding as many regular commuters (myself included) can confirm.
It is characteristic of Corbyn that he has made a pig’s ear out of raising an issue like overcrowding which should be like shooting fish in a barrel. Instead he has created an utter debacle and – quite incredibly – managed to cede the moral high-ground to Virgin Trains.
@ Simon Shaw – you are certain in your interpretation of the facts yet you yourself say you rely on your assumption.
I wonder if the doubters here have looked at the contradictory evidence or just simply accept Virgin’s account.
Perhaps on a broader note LDV contributors would do well to be reminded of Wilde ” The one thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about” – something like that.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of this incident the mocking of some LibDems is telling. Corbyn supports public ownership of the railways and this has considerable support. People identify with him.
Whereas the LibDem policy is what? Tim Farron is invisible and what fraction of 1% of voters could articulate the LibDem position? But of course it’s Corbyn who has the problem.
Simon Shaw, I had assumed (though I may be wrong) that these pictures were from before the train started. I think Corbyn got on in London, which was where the train started from. So if he arrived early, it could well be that there were many reserved seats that would soon become full when the people who had reserved them turned up. Of course in practice reserved seats often do remain unclaimed, but Corbyn would not know whether or not they would be claimed. It is quite possible that there were other, unreserved, empty seats elsewhere on the train. I was just trying to be fair and point out that the picture that illustrates this article does not discredit Corbyn’s story.
@ Simon Shaw (BTW if you really did mean to refer to someone as a “purchase tax evader”, you do realise that purchase tax hasn’t existed for at least 43 years)
Well, Simon, if you’d bothered to do a bit of research (which you didn’t) you’d know that it was purchase tax.But then……. a few assertions without evidence, as Dave Orbison describesto you, is always satisfying isn’t it.
Dave O
I’m pretty certain the Libdem position is that the country cannot afford renationalisation so it would therefore have to be theft. Hence despite any right & wrongs of privatisation, and there are valid arguments for both, the fact is that we are stuck with it until such time as Britain gets some spare cash. The important thing is that the track itself is nationalised.
Of course why Corbyn felt the need for this stunt is anybody’s guess since overcrowding is common knowledge. What is probably more important is the militancy of the trade unions which we certainly didn’t miss after privatisation and which is causing such problems recently. Alas Corbyn is already the lapdog of the more militant union leaders.
But whoever wins, the country loses.
I think Corbyn has agreed that he and the people with him did find seats after about 40 minutes. Perhaps these were some of the reserved seats that had not been claimed. But initially, Corbyn would not have known if reserved seats would be claimed or not. After all, it would have made rather an embarrassing news story if someone had arrived at the last minute for their reserved seat, and found Corbyn sitting in it. Obviously I don’t really know the whole story about this, but was just trying to be fair to Corbyn – the picture above is quite compatible with Corbyn believing he had no option but to begin the journey sitting on the floor.
@Dave Orbison
“Whatever the rights and wrongs of this incident the mocking of some LibDems is telling.”
Quite right! The idea that Lib Dems should mock or express any disagreement at all with your beloved leader is indeed telling.
I think it tells you that a lot of Lib Dems are in tune with the vast majority of the public who consider Corbyn to be an apparently polite man (no doubt the benefits of a prep school education), but who is hopeless as party leader, has taken some dubious political positions over the years (the most recent being his views on NATO) and who includes as his friends some rather unpleasant characters.
“Corbyn supports public ownership of the railways and this has considerable support. People identify with him.”
Yes, because the railways were so fantastic when they were in public ownership, weren’t they?
As for “people identify with him” clearly 15% or 20% of the poulation do, and that amounts to many millions of people. The problem is that 15% or 20% (or even 30%, for that matter) doesn’t win you a General Election. But as we all know, Corbyn and his backers aren’t particularly interested in that.
@David Raw
“Simon Shaw: (BTW if you really did mean to refer to someone as a “purchase tax evader”, you do realise that purchase tax hasn’t existed for at least 43 years)
Well, Simon, if you’d bothered to do a bit of research (which you didn’t) you’d know that it was purchase tax.”
So you are confirming that when you said “purchase tax” you meant that.
And if you had done a bit of research yourself (as I did) you would know that purchase tax disappeared in the UK in April 1973, i.e. just over 43 years ago, as I said.
I think that must mean, David, that you can only be referring to something that happened at least 43 years ago, or that you made it all up. I’m not sure I can think of any other explanation.
BTW, you still haven’t explained your bizarre comment: “PS How are your hedges, Simon ?” Was that also something 43 years ago, as well?
@ Simon Shaw : “The problem is that 15% or 20% (or even 30%, for that matter) doesn’t win you a General Election”.
How does that compare with our present 8%, Simon ? A bit like Burton Albion playing Liverpool, I guess.
@JamesG “theft”. Corbyn’s proposal is to take up each franchise as the current one expires. That is not theft. As to affordability that relies on economic policy and spending choices such as nuclear deterrent etc.
@Simon Shaw. I went to an just a State primary then comprehensive school before going on to university (thankfully paid for by the State). Whilst you acknowledge Corbyn is “apparently polite” I am slightly insulted that you think ‘politeness’ can only be attributable to having a prep school education.
@David Raw
“Simon Shaw : “The problem is that 15% or 20% (or even 30%, for that matter) doesn’t win you a General Election”.
How does that compare with our present 8%, Simon ?”
What a silly comment, David. (Incidentally, have you always suffered from this self-loathing?)
The difference is that we don’t pretend that we could replace the Conservatives as the government at the next general election. In contrast the Labour Party do, although with rather too much emphasis on the “pretend” under Corbyn.
You, like quite a lot on the middle class “Left”, appear to be quite happy if the Conservatives remain in government for the next 10 or 20 years. I always think that one of the ironies of politics is that those who claim to be most opposed to the Conservatives are least bothered with how you get a chunk of current Conservative voters to move elsewhere.
@Simon Shaw
If the Lib Dems want to persuade Tory voters like me you’d have to be seen as other than the single issue pro-EU party.
Yes, it should derail him because it proves that, though he has valid points, he has no idea how the modern world actually works. How could he not know they have CCTV on trains and that they would use it? What a plonker. I don’t want this man anywhere near the leadership of my country. I’m not alone. That should worry Labour given that I’m a poor working class girl from a council estate in the arse end of the West Midlands. The people around here won’t flood to the Lib Dems though: they are socially conservative, so they’ll go UKIP et al if they go anywhere.
I can’t see how it will have much effect — there are a few people out there on social media saying there were people sitting on the floor on that train, and I have met many people who were nice enough to refuse to sit anywhere a ‘reserved’ sign was showing…
so those who feel the need to sympathise with Corbyn will continue to feel they have grounds for doing so. Yes, his camp have overhyped it, but they are talking to an already warmed-up crowd who feel no trust for Smith.
I think this whole episode displays the intellectual poverty of the Labour leadership election. Smith is deploying the ‘I’m just like Jeremy only I’m sort of not just like Jeremy’ strategy that did so well for Andy Burnham last time. I speak to Labour members who normally dislike Corbyn but are planning to vote for him as a they see him as the underdog being ‘ganged up on’ by the MPs.
Anyone who has a coherent vision of the future of Labour that is disinctive and bold is staying dead quiet.
Corbyn is campaigning by complaining about the UK whilst offering little plan, whilst Labour MPs largely complain about him but offer little plan themselves.
This is a trainwreck – to borrow an apposite metaphor.
Simon Shaw 24th Aug ’16 – 11:42am
…………………..You, like quite a lot on the middle class “Left”, appear to be quite happy if the Conservatives remain in government for the next 10 or 20 years. I always think that one of the ironies of politics is that those who claim to be most opposed to the Conservatives are least bothered with how you get a chunk of current Conservative voters to move elsewhere……………
It wasn’t the ‘Left’ who, when in coalition, became ‘more Tory than the Tories’…As for the ‘middle class’ bit; showing concern, for those less fortunate than oneself, used to be a Liberal tradition…Recently we had Danny Alexander (sorry, SIR Danny Alexander) applauding the policies specifically targeting the most vulnerable in society…
As for Corbyn’s train episode; it is far preferable to Osborne paying for a second class ticket and travelling first class…That used to be deemed as rather more serious…
“It wasn’t the ‘Left’ who, when in coalition, became ‘more Tory than the Tories’…”
Actually the Blair years fit that description much better than the Con-Lib coalition, both parts of which were less right-wing than ‘New Labour’; the party that introduced tuition fees – something beyond the pale even for Tories at the time.
Corbyn is the leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition and is travelling the country fighting to hold on to that post. This very fact raises two very obvious points and poses a question.
Firstly I would presume that he has a security presence of some kind.
Secondly, he will have a campaign team around him, organising his every moment during this leadership election campaign.
These two comments lead on to a question. Did no-one in his entourage have the nous to book seats in advance? Booking reserved seats on a train isn’t exactly rocket science! It’s not as if his trip to Gateshead was a last minute decision. We Lib Dems who live in Gateshead knew he was coming almost two weeks before the event. Corbyn’s campaign has been shambolic so far and this is the guy who wants to be Prime Minister? His team don’t seem to be able to organise the proverbial p*** up in a brewery.
Dave O.
“Corbyn’s proposal is to take up each franchise as the current one expires. That is not theft.”
Well ok it’s a fair cop – or is it? According to the Spectator…
“First…only five of Great Britain’s 25 railway franchises are coming up for renewal between 2020 and 2025. If Corbyn is proposing to make the renationalisation of the railways the centrepiece of his first-term legislative programme, it’ll be a bit of a damp squib. By my estimation, he’d have to remain in power until 2036 in order to see this policy through, by which time he’d be 87….
Second, …not only would the government have to invest many billions into the rail network, as the private providers currently do, but the Office of National Statistics would reclassify the entire stock of railway assets, forcing it back on to the public balance sheet. This would happen even if only a handful of the franchises were operated by the government. At a stroke, the annual deficit would increase by £10 billion or more.”
Not that I normally ascribe to the views of that rag but it’s a foible of mine to consider all sides of an argument before forming an opinion. Would that more folk did the same..
JamesG 24th Aug ’16 – 2:38pm…………….Actually the Blair years fit that description much better than the Con-Lib coalition, both parts of which were less right-wing than ‘New Labour’; the party that introduced tuition fees – something beyond the pale even for Tories at the time……..
Please, James, Tripling tuition fees after given written guarantees to vote to abolish them, signing up to ‘Top-Down NHS reform, Bedroom tax, Secret Courts, etc…
I am no fan of Blair but, under his watch, public spending on health and education significantly increased, the introduction of a minimum wage, constitutional reform such as devolution in Scotland and Wales, and progress in the Northern Ireland peace process. The British economy performed well and the real incomes of Britons grew 18 per cent during 1997–2006. He also presided over a significant expansion of the welfare state during his time in office, which led to a significant reduction in relative poverty…..
Not everything was rosy but a lot fairer than 2010-15…My real gripe with Blair, apart from Iraq, is that, with his massive majority, he could have done even more for the disadvantaged…
Yes, it’s a pity a serious political point gets lost, though whether rail renationalisation would make conditions any better without spending a lot more money on that instead of something else (NHS?) needs to be asked. But complaining about this suggests never having entered the real political world. Imagine Theresa May, making a major speech about direct versus indirect taxation, slipped and knocked over a police officer. Would the media attention be most on (a) taxation or (b) knocking people over? The whole business does suggest yet again a lack of basic competence in Corbyn and his team. What did they expect to happen?
As for David Raw – we could go on about Labour broken promises (and lies – weapons of mass destruction), but I think it’s enough to point out that the Liberal Democrats don’t have the same leader any more. Nudge to Labour?
If a seat is reserved between say York and Newcastle on a train travelling from London to Newcastle or beyond it is ok for a passenger from London to use the seat until the person who reserved the seat gets on. Youcan just check the label. I expect there would be other seats becoming vacant at York and a good chance to stretch your legs.
Commuter trains are often full but not always. I am often pleasantly surprised to get a seat when I travel at about 5.30 on trains coming from London.
Trains in the middle of the day are rarely full. If they were then the railways would not need such big subsidies.
Mr Corbyn spoke about the vast subsidies paid to Virgin. On the East Coast they are paying the Government £3.3 billion in premiums, although I gather they are struggling to pay such a large amount.
Corbyn’s attitude to being questioned on the issue is telling. He really doesn’t like being held to account and isn’t used to being challenged. Flashes of true anger at being caught out despite the incident being his own stupid fault. Goes to character and I couldn’t agree more with Lyn Newman.
This is getting even more hilarious.
The biggest problem is that Corbyn keeps changing his story, apparently even within the same press conference (I’m talking about the one today which the BBC described as “tetchy”).
1. According to a clip on the BBC he said today that he was looking for “two empty seats together so I could sit down with my wife” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37173048
2. However according to a clip (clearly filmed a couple of minutes earlier or later) on the Guardian’s website he said he “boarded a crowded train with a group of colleagues … there wasn’t a place for us all to sit down” http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/aug/24/jeremy-corbyn-clashes-with-journalist-over-train-row-questions-virgin-video
3. If we refer back to the original Corbyn-produced video of two weeks ago http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/aug/16/jeremy-corbyn-floor-overcrowded-train-video we see him say (sat on the floor) “the reality is there’s not enough trains, we need more of them”.
So if we take 2. and 3. together we can only conclude that because Corbyn boarded a train (without booking) with three, four or five collegues, who he wanted to sit with, he wants more trains (at significant extra public expense) – to accommodate his incompetence!
On your bike, Corbyn!
Catherine Jane Crosland
I think it’s reasonable to assume that if a reserved seat remains unclaimed 15 minutes after the train has left the station then it is not going to be claimed. And there were quite a lot of unclaimed reserved seats. The occupants cannot all have been in the loo or the buffet bar queue. But instead of waiting to see whether any seats would turn out to be available, and instead even of accepting a complimentary first-class upgrade, he chose to pull a pointless stunt.
I am not sure that this will greatly affect Corbyn’s supporters; hear no evil, see no evil, but castigate all others as red Tories (even though others can see that they are themselves arch ‘Tory enablers’) is their creed.
Outside this clique, Corbyn has little credibility anyway, but his claim to be a ‘different kind of politician’ has gone for a Burton. The message to Tim Farron is do not fall for the temptation of claiming to be ‘different kind of politician’, Nick Clegg tried it once …
Passengers, especially young people, are often seen sitting on the floor in trains despite there being seats available. They can be a nuisance as they sit by the exits and make it difficult to pass through the train to use the toilet or refreshment coach or get off the train.
Why are reservations free ? I remember when they cost 5 shillings before computerisation. A small charge might deter people from making several reservations just in case their plans change. Perhaps they should follow South Western Trains who abolished them because trains were so frequent.
Mr Corbyn’s supporters are still claiming that every franchise requires a subsidy but a small number do not and cover all their costs, including allocated costs, and pay a premium to the Treasury.
If he was such a man of the people, instead of using the train, which is mainly a middle class preserve, he should use the Express Coach. You have to reserve a seat to be able to travel on those vehicles. You also have to reserve a seat to be able to travel on a long distance train in China and several other countries. I am sure his assistants could have arranged this.
Passengers, especially young people, are often seen sitting on the floor in trains despite there being seats available. They can be a nuisance as they sit by the exits and make it difficult to pass through the train to use the toilet or refreshment coach or get off the train. !!?!!!
I’ve found when travelling on crowded trains that young people and the young at heart – without reserved seats, are generally quite considerate and will choose to occupy the impromptu seats (corridors, luggage spaces, vestibules) rather than compete with those who want the real seats. Unfortunately, on the more modern carriages, these spaces have been reduced and hence, yes, having people occupying them is more of a problem when you need to move from your seat/perch.
However, the problem of too many passengers for the available seats is one that is intrinsic to any service that isn’t all seating and permits people to simply turn up and ride. We’ve discussed this on LDV before in the context of bus services and their ability to cater for disabled/wheelchair users and parents with buggies/prams.
I had a laugh with the customer services representatives from several of the franchise operators when discussing how to get a group of young cyclists and their bikes up to London to participate in the TfL sponsored RideLondon event when effectively all the operators only permitted the carriage of two bikes per train and then only if they had reservations. This limitation meant, according to one representative that a family of four would have to travel as two groups of two on separate trains, however, this would contravene the T&C’s of the family railcard, which requires all members of the group to travel with the railcard holder… We used the operator who’s representative cycled (‘real’ bike not a folding bike) and used the train in their commute didn’t make reservations as their staff had instructions only to enforce the rule at peak times or if the train was full. What this nicely demonstrates is that our trains have become much more limited in their capabilities, as only a few years back many trains also had a sizeable guard’s van that could easily swallow 20+ bikes.
@expats
“Tripling tuition fees after given written guarantees to vote to abolish them, signing up to ‘Top-Down NHS reform, Bedroom tax, Secret Courts, etc…”
You realise the Libdems came 3rd don’t you? They could only do what they managed to negotiate; which meant priorities came first. btw the Labour party had the same plans as the Tories on tuition fees despite their rank hypocrisy about it.
As for the NHS, one of the major problems with the NHS budget is paying for the Blairite PFI agreements that were never a good deal. Nice to see that the Labour party now decry their own privatisation of the NHS. Pity they didn’t give some more thought to it beforehand!
Roland: Trains seem to be carrying more people since privatisation and of course some people do not like that as they cannot always get double seat to themselves. We always wanted more people to use the trains and now they do we complain. Be careful what you wish for? As I come from a railway background I am very happy to see the railways better used and hope it will continue but maybe we could do without the Pied Piper from Islington whose plans would not be helpful.
@expats
And I suppose we could mention the Iraq War too….Michael Moore specifically blames Blair because without the UK, Bush would not have gone ahead. Labour is a game of major policy swings: Their supporters are empty vessels, not knowing what to believe until their new glorious leader tells them and then they then en masse swing with the party and unthinkingly shout the new/old policy from the rooftops. I remember the anti-EU, pro-disarmamant Labour party.
Jeremy Corbyn’s loyal shadow chancellor is on page one of The Times on 26 August 2016.
Could he be trying to distract attention from his leader’s train journey?
He has said that Labour should suspend David Sainsbury’s membership. Is he serious?
In the Remain campaign Labour people worked with Lib Dems, Greens, Tories and independents.
The problem with the Labour Party is that it has had nothing of value to say about anything of importance since about 1950 but could rely on the unthinking support of the working class until recently when it dawned on them that Labour did not have their interests at heart and their middle class leaders mostly regarded them with contempt.
They have had their revenge by voting for Brexit because they knew that was the pet project of the middle class left. In a more extreme version they set fire to comprehensive schools just before term starts as that is another pet Labour project.
Just as the Liberals replaced the Whigs and then were replaced by the Labour Party so it is probably the moment for a new party to emerge to replace the anachronistic Labour Party. This is something which is occurring all over Europe, where the once mighty SPD in Germany now gets about 20% support, even less than the UK Labour Party.
What person of substance would want to lead the Labour Party now ? Clearly no one as they have refused to stand.
nvelope2003 28th Aug ’16 – 9:59am……The problem with the Labour Party is that it has had nothing of value to say about anything of importance since about 1950…
After such an opening sentence why read further?
Let’s try remembering the minimum wage, devolution for Scotland and Wales, tax credits for poorly paid working families, increased spending on health and education, Paternity leave, Equality and Human Rights Commission, Ban on fox hunting…..The list goes on…..
OTOH, LibDems in government….Top Down NHS problems, tripling of tuition fees, bedroom tax, secret courts, the list goes on…
Expats: I was hoping to start a debate. You have made some valid points but all those things have had unfortunate downsides because they were not thought through carefully enough. The Liberal Democrats did not advocate the policies you criticise – they were part of a coalition deal.
What I was meaning is that there has been no big idea to stir the heart and make ordinary working people want to go out and support them. The Pied Piper of Islington has just put forward the old failed policies that have been tried in Venezuela, Cuba etc and work for a while but then cause economic collapse. The young seem totally ignorant of this – so much for 144 years of compulsory education and wall to wall news coverage. He seems to get a lot of support from the better off people – the sort who can afford to go on trains. Maybe they are upset at losing some of their perks and privileges and want to go back to some comfortable nationalised world where no one does much work and every thing goes downhill, or resent the success of China and want to stop it by establishing fortress Britain.
@expats
“Let’s try remembering the minimum wage, devolution for Scotland and Wales, tax credits for poorly paid working families, …”
The problem is that they were all done by the Blair government and we are now told that wan’t really a proper Labour government after all. Clearly he was a Red Tory all along.
nvelope2003 28th Aug ’16 – 3:01pm…………..Expats: I was hoping to start a debate. You have made some valid points but all those things have had unfortunate downsides because they were not thought through carefully enough. The Liberal Democrats did not advocate the policies you criticise – they were part of a coalition deal…………….
But we did advocate them…At no point did Clegg, Alexander, Laws, etc. state, “These are NOT our policies”. LDV ran threads lauding the fact that “70% of coalition policies are LibDem” and it was as late as 2012 that Stephen Tall and Mark Pack started spinning that, “Goodness me; only 40% were ours and we stopped the Tories “Privatising the motorways and key A-Roads” and “Watering down the ban on hunting by allowing 40 dogs to flush out a fox”…etc….
As a for phrases like the “Pied Piper of Islington”is there some reason you can’t just write Jeremy Corbyn? Instead of statements ‘like Venezuela, Cuba etc’ why not itemise a few policies and take them to task? That is debate!
Simon Shaw, Another of your ‘one liners’…Trying to debate sensibly with you is, as has been said many times, “like bottling fog”; you never answer a question. So, so tiresome…
Expats: Ok Mr Jeremy Corbyn – the term Pied Piper was just a little joke as he seems like that with a sort of children’s crusade.There was no bedroom tax if you wish to be precise. What the Government were trying to do was stop subsidising council house tenants who had rooms they no longer needed in order to release bigger houses for those who needed them. I am against the sale of council houses unless the purchaser pays full market value and another house is built with the proceeds which would hopefully stop the sales.
70% is not 100%. Threads on LDV do not mean all members agrees with them.The big mistake was going into a coalition with the Conservatives because in any coalition the parties have to make concessions The Liberal Democrats were keen to show they could make a contribution to governing the UK and in many ways it was a much better government than what followed in 2015. It was good for the nation but a disaster for the Liberal Democrat party from which it might never recover. However, I suspect that there will be some realignment of political forces in the not too distant future as this seems to happening elsewhere in Europe with the decline in Social Democrat parties and the unfortunate rise of the Right brought on by the foolishness of the left in failing to keep their supporters on board.
As for Mr Corbyn’s policies I am opposed to his plans to renationalise the railways but I think he made a fatal error in saying he would not retaliate if Britain was subject to a nuclear threat and that he would not come to the aid of a nation which was attacked by another. Surely membership of the UN requires us to support a nation under attack. That is the principal reason for its existence.
I like his policies towards those who are repressed by other groups but I think his economic policies would not work. I do not think he is unelectable because he seems very plausible to many people. The Conservatives might be in for the shock of their lives if Brexit flops.
I hope this satisfies your request.
Expats: The British system requires collective responsibility for members of the Government. even Coalitions. If you attack the policy in public you are expected to resign – what is that you may well ask !
Thank you for our response…
para 1…l am totally against the sale of council homes, at any price…On ‘bedroom tax..Had the government wished to act in the way you suggest financial penalties would have been enacted only against those who were offered alternatives and refused…That was not the case!
para 2…Members did not agree with them…Matthew Huntbach,for instance, wore out his keyboard pointing out the error of such claims…
para 3… I agree with Corbyn’s proposals that, as each franchise ends, the franchise should revert to public ownership (so do 62% of the population)
As for retaliation if we have been ‘nuked’…What is the point? Killing more civilians is not a good idea…
Coming to the aid of a nation that has been attacked… Who attacked; with what and why? He actually said that he would prefer to talk…and why not?
BTW if there is a heightened chance of nuclear war NATO’s(Not the UN) response is for the three nuclear members to talk before action….
BTW read about the Soviet B-59 1962 incident and the Norwegian weather rocket of 1995….Rather more than worrying!
Not renewing trident would immediately release enough money for over a million affordable homes..I know which we REALLY need…
As for collective responsibility read Vince Cable’s public criticisms whilst in Cameron’s cabinet and those of Clare Short in Blair’s….
Expats: It is not for the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to say he would not defend the country. If he did then another power would take advantage of it if it wished. We cannot possibly know who might wish to attack us either now or in years to come. It is absurd to think otherwise. Of course no one here wants to kill millions of people but some other rulers would not be bothered in the least and so they must be certain that we would if it was necessary to preserve our nation. Of course there must always be talks – only a madman would think otherwise but talks are not always successful as my parents and grandparents could testify. We live in an imperfect world.
If we abolished the armed forces, closed down the railways and restricted schooling to those who had a higher IQ than the average I am sure we could do as you suggest but it would be wrong to do those things.
nvelope2003 29th Aug ’16 – 9:20pm…………..Expats: It is not for the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to say he would not defend the country………..
Where did he say he would not defend the country?
Expats: He implied it and that is a very dangerous thing to do as a potential enemy would take advantage of that. The lesson of history and human existence is that you must make it clear what you will do and then stick to it. Misunderstandings created by the US ambassador to Iraq are thought to have encouraged Saddam Hussein to invade Kuwait.
Why on earth does almost every post here argue either that Corbyn was wholly in the right, or that Corbyn was wholly in the wrong?
The facts – It was a crowded train. Virgin have admitted that by admitting that the train manager upgraded people into first class in order to free up second class seats.
The other facts – Corbyn was not forced to sit on the floor. He admits he and his wife could have sat in separate single seats which were not adjacent.
So – He wasn’t blatantly lying. But – He was putting on a silly stunt, unnecessarily, which backfired, and could have been predicted to backfire. Not leadership material. The sight of Corbyn looking like a dosser and using the faux-yoofspeak word “ram-packed” does not impress!
Mind you – Virgin Trains releasing a video showing Corbyn walking past empty but reserved seats, probably while passengers were still able to get on board and take up those reserved seats, was a really nasty political dirty trick. We should not endorse it.
The problem with Corbyn is that he is very divisive, intentionally so. If there was another financial disaster people might vote for him in desperation, like they voted for Hitler, Mussolini etc, although I am not comparing him with them. He has attracted the higher paid left wing people who do not like the cuts in public spending which affects their pay and prospects, and some younger people but seems to divide the traditional Labour voters between those who like him and the more traditional ones who do not and may move to UKIP.
He has advocated some populist policies like renationalisation of railways which might wreck them but would not do much damage to the economy but all these things have been tried before and although initially popular soon became unpopular.
How would renationalisation improve things when the source of most of their problems lies with the already publicly owned Network Rail who do not have the resources either in skilled staff, equipment or money to put right the decades of under investment and reductions in capacity which occurred under British Rail ? One example was the sale of railway owned land needed to build flyovers to increase capacity at junctions, on the orders of the Government. Another the singling of double track routes and sale of supposedly surplus land which makes reinstatement of the second track very expensive and sometimes impossible. A lot of money has had to be spent on increasing double track to four tracks after it was reduced by BR.
The train operators are trying to reduce operating costs, on the orders of the Government, to keep down the taxpayer funded subsidies but get nothing but abuse for the disruption caused by strikes in opposition to the economies needed to achieve this. How would renationalisation solve any of these problems ? The publicly owned London Underground has been plagued by strikes over implementing economies.
David Allen: The train was scheduled to depart at 11 am. The video showing the empty seats was taken at 1107 so it is unlikely that many passengers would still be looking for their seats.
nvelope, the video shows virtually a whole empty second class carriage with reserved tickets. Yet the train was so crowded that Virgin by their own admission upgraded people into first class so as to free up more second class seating. Conclusion, there must have been plenty of passengers still looking for their seats when that video was filmed. Sitting in a reserved seat and then getting turfed out of it by its rightful owner is not something I would want to do, and clearly, nor did Corbyn.
Laying yourself open to people who want to play dirty tricks is not clever. But please let’s us not support the players of dirty tricks.
David Allen: I think Virgin upgraded one family to First Class after Mr Corbyn declined their offer to upgrade him and his entourage as he did not want to take precedence over that family. It seems the family were in sight of him.
I think most people going on a long distance train would be in their seats a few minutes before the train departed from King’s Cross or any terminal station. It would be extraordianry if a whole carriage of reserved seats was still unoccupied 7 minutes after departure unless those reservations were for passengers joining at an intermediate station, in this case apparently York. Passengers are allowed to occupy those seats until the train reaches the station where the passenger who has reserved the seat intends to join the train. Normally the Reservation card states where the passenger wants to get on. I agree some people may feel a bit awkward about sitting in such a seat but I have done it and in almost every case no one actually claimed the seat or even looked as though they might do so. I would not stand for 2 hours if I could sit down. People often reserve seats on several trains just in case they change their mind or miss the train.
I do not think it is unreasoanble for any business to defend itself against what it considers unjustified complaints, especially if they are motivated by political considerations.
When Labour leader Ed Miliband took the power to appoint Labour’s shadow cabinet a backbench MP called Jeremy Corbyn was interviewed on the BBC TV Daily Politics arguing for the previous system of election by Labour MPs while in opposition.
This had affected the quality of the Labour cabinet in government after the 1997 general election and led to a high turnover of government ministers.
To be consistent Labour leader and leadership candidate Jeremy Corbyn should support on Monday 5/9/2016 a return to election of Labour’s shadow cabinet by Labour MPs.