ICYMI: Nick Clegg’s Andrew Marr interview: Post Brexit trade deals and the cannibalisation of Labour

Nick Clegg was on the Andrew Marr show today talking about the opportunity that exists for the House of Commons to amend any Article 50 legislation that comes before it, the potential for post-Brexit trade deals (nothing comes close to being as good as what we have at the moment) and the state of the Labour Party. It’s failure to be a decent opposition on the biggest issue to face this country for some time will cost it, says Nick. It’ll be “cannibalised” by UKIP in the north and the Liberal Democrats in the south.

Watch the whole thing courtesy of BBC Politics here.

Posted in News | Tagged and | 30 Comments
Advert

LDV’s Sunday Best: our 7 most-read articles this week

7 bestMany thanks to the  visitors who dropped by Lib Dem Voice this week. Here’s our 7 most-read posts…

Remember: LibDemVoice is our place to talk. So if you’ve got something you want to say, please join in the debate or start one yourself by writing for us.

When things come together: Stoke-on-Trent and my emotions (36 comments) by Ed Fordham

Lib Dems announce regional spokespeople on Brexit (19 comments) by Caron Lindsay

Brexit mandate: Theresa May should be aware of an expiry date (34 comments) by Frank Hindle

Why Theresa May’s

Posted in Site news | Leave a comment

Zulfiqar Ali is in this to win Stoke-on-Trent Central

Having lived in the City of Stoke-on-Trent it was always something of a guilty confession that I was no fan of football. With two major clubs in the City: Stoke and Port Vale, it was crucial to know when the match days were. Indeed when we are campaigning for votes a throwaway joke was that on match days we would be “down in the terraces of the Victoria Ground”. On hearing this folks assumed I was a Stoke City fan and that I would be there cheering them on. In fact on a match day, especially for Stoke, it was perfect day for delivering the literally hundreds of terraced houses down and around the old Victoria Ground. The new Britannia Ground is not far away now, but those terraces and more are still there waiting to be delivered by you

Now the local bus company is Potteries Motor Traction – a hark back to a previous era and so now cut down to just PMT. But when running campaigns it was always important to make sure that we had Potteries Voter Traction. Anyone could muster up negatives, everyone could join the latest campaign the real issue was if you could get traction, respect and therefore votes enough fromresidents that would propel you over the winning line.

The other issue was building up a local party who looked and sounded like Stoke – now this is a city of communities. Sometimes it sounds over complex but let me run you though it.

Posted in Op-eds | Tagged , and | 4 Comments

From Peter Mannion to Roy Jenkins

The man who made us all howl with laughter in The Thick of It as Minister Peter Mannion, Roger Allam, has been cast as a real life politician. He will play Roy Jenkins in a forthcoming play about the decision by the Gang of Four Jenkins, Bill Rodgers, Shirley Williams and David Owen, to leave Labour and form the SDP. They issued the Limehouse Declaration in January 1981.

From London Theatre :

Posted in News | Tagged and | Leave a comment

New issue of Liberator out

Issue 382 of Liberator is on its way to subscribers.

This issue’s free sample online content is from Nick Harvey on winning back support in the south west from voters who may have backed Brexit, and from Lester Holloway on whether the Alderdice review of diversity will tackle issues facing Liberal Democrats from ethnic groups

Elsewhere the new issue has:

MENTAL HEALTH – WHY IS IT LAST IN LINE FOR RESOURCES?

by Claire Tyler, who has secured new legislation to improve child mental

health

TROUBLE IN J-TOWN by Rebecca Tinsley, who has seen terrorism, religious polarisation, and eye-watering corruption in northern Nigeria

Posted in News | Tagged | 6 Comments
Advert

William Wallace writes…What should the Liberal Democrats be saying to the “left behind?”

What should the Liberal Democrats be saying to the ‘Left Behind’?  We’ve claimed a strong position as the voice of the 48%; but there are many among the 52% who are not illiberal at heart, and others who voted ‘Sod off!’ in the Referendum to London as much as to Brussels in their disillusion with politics and the distant elite.  People who live on partly-sold off Council estates, or in places built to house workers in factories that closed 30 to 40 years ago, where local services have been steadily cut back and jobs are hard to get to, low paid and insecure, have some justifiable reasons to feel resentful .

Theresa May has spoken about the ‘left behind’ at the Davos World Economic Forum, but said little about what an’ active state’ (yes, she has used that term) should do to help them. Donald Trump in his inauguration speech promised ‘the forgotten people’ from globalisation that they will now be remembered, but didn’t say what he would do to help them beyond putting up barriers to imports.  The right-wing media in Britain have portrayed their problems as mostly down to fecklessness and immigrants – taking their jobs and the social housing they want to claim, weighing down the NHS.  Labour is wavering over whether to give in to that narrative, or address more underlying problems.

But what do we want to say, consistent with our values, and without pandering to the ‘blame the East Europeans’ narrative?  Liberal Democrat peers have set up a working group to address this, to feed into party campaigning in ‘left behind’ areas.  The London-based media portrays the political choices for such voters as between Labour and UKIP (having forgotten the Lib Dem record in cities like Sheffield, Liverpool, Newcastle, Hull and elsewhere).  We know that Labour has already lost their trust, and that local campaigning has created new pockets of Liberal Democrat support, with encouraging local by-election results in recent months. Our group includes peers with local government experience in northern cities and neglected rural areas; and we are drawing on a number of reports on the social and economic conditions of England’s pockets of depression and deprivation.

Posted in Op-eds | Tagged , , , and | 43 Comments

What next with Trump vs the Media?

The first thing I read this morning was the Twitter feed of the BBC’s James Cook who spent yesterday following Donald Trump around as he gave a speech at the CIA.

We’ve all watched enough West Wing to know how the White House’s relationship with the media works. The Press Secretary briefs the press every day and takes questions.

It looks like things are changing:

This …

Posted in Op-eds | Tagged , and | 11 Comments

Dr Zulfiqar Ali’s campaign for Stoke Central gets underway

In the olden days when by-election candidates were selected, there was a press release with lots of biographical information and some lovely quotes from the candidate.

These days, Ed Fordham just tells everyone on Twitter.

I have heard massively good things about Dr Zulfiqar Ali. He’s an NHS consultant who lives in Stoke and fought the seat in 2015.

The Party President was one of the first to congratulate him. …

Posted in News | Tagged , , , and | 31 Comments

Tim Farron’s message to the London Women’s March: We fight back against divisiveness and intolerance by working together

I may have spoken too soon last night. Seems like the leader was on the case after all.

And here is Sarah Olney MP leading the Lib Dem delegation at the march.

Posted in News | Tagged , and | 5 Comments

One union liberalism

So now we know what Brexit means. Other than the famous tautology, it means we’re out of the Union, out of the market, out of the travel area, out of the customs union, everything. To cut a long story very short, it means I feel lied to.

Far from governing in the interests of both Remain and Leave voters, this government’s Brexit objectives leave pro-Europeans with no stake in the proceedings that will define this United Kingdom perhaps for the remaining duration of its existence. Worse, we are being asked to meekly unite behind the most trenchant version of the opposing viewpoint available.

A bitter enough pill for an individual to swallow, but in summarily rejecting any compromise at all, this government is also dismissing a substantial majority view formed in a nation backing European partnership.

Liberal Democrats in Scotland have been making a virtue out of being the only party in favour of two Unions, the only pro-EU, pro-UK party. Given the ascendant and hegemonic views of the SNP and the Tories, the probability of retaining both unions is low. Those parties hold power and will remain in power throughout the negotiations as no elections are due between then and now. By the time we get a chance to propose having cake and eating it to the electorate, it will be too late. There will be no cake.

Posted in Op-eds | Tagged , and | 30 Comments

Labour lashes out at Lib Dems

Remember how, last week, Jeremy Corbyn’s relaunch was such a runaway success. Not even Tony Blair in the early years could gather such positive headlines.

Ok, so maybe that’s not quite how it happened. At least we’re now clear on their policy on freedom of movement. They love immigration and they hate it, depending on who they are talking to.

Labour has stepped up its attacks on the Lib Dems in the last couple of days, presumably because they have to fight two by-elections on 23rd February where the Leave vote will be split 3 ways and we are the only party offering any sort of opposition to the Tories.

But they couldn’t quite manage it competently. The International Business Times was none too chuffed to find its video being used by Jeremy Corbyn, uncredited, to attack Tim Farron.

Posted in News | Tagged , and | 29 Comments

A missed opportunity for the Party

As President Trump sits down in the Oval Office for his first day in power, hundreds of thousands of people will march in Washington DC to show solidarity with those who have good reason to be fearful of the next four years. Women, Muslims disabled people, Mexicans are just some of Trump’s targets who have faced mockery, inappropriate comment or language bordering on hate speech from him. Every time he talks about building walls, or banning people, or openly admits sexual assault like it’s all a game or mocks disabled people, he encourages another round of abuse and prejudice.

Marches in …

Posted in News | Tagged and | 21 Comments

Cllr Antony Hook makes it another Lib Dem GAIN from the Conservatives

It was a very quiet night on the by-election front last night.

The Conservatives managed to hold a seat in Bromsgrove where we didn’t stand but their vote fell by 16.6%.

However where we did stand in a seat on Faversham Town Council in Kent, our very own Antony Hook gained a seat from the Conservatives.

Posted in News | Tagged and | 12 Comments

Tim Farron tops Guardian front page as Carmichael’s “You’re not an opposition” riposte to Thornberry gets biggest Question Time cheer

Last night, Alistair Carmichael took full advantage of the opportunity his last minute addition to the Question Time panel gave him to give both Conservatives and Labour a blast.

Watch him tell off Labour’s Emily Thornberry:

Earlier today, Tim Farron was the top story on the Guardian website as he lambasted Labour’s failure to put up any sort of opposition to the Tories.

In an overt attempt to steal votes from Labour in pro-remain constituencies, Farron said he believed Corbyn had put his party on the wrong side of the biggest political issue in a generation and was struggling because his MPs were increasingly split on how to respond.

Posted in News | Tagged , , and | 7 Comments

Liberal Democrat membership tops 80,000

Sal Brinton, the Lib Dem President, has announced that party membership has topped 80,000, with 1000 people joining the Liberal Democrats since Theresa May’s speech announcing that the Tories are going for the most extreme, hard Brexit that they can. 500 people have joined in the last 24 hours since Jeremy Corbyn signalled a 3-line whip for Labour MPs to vote for the triggering of Article 50.

Sal said:

The Liberal Democrats are the real opposition to this Conservative Brexit Government and it is great to welcome so many new members.

For those who oppose Theresa May’s plans to rip Britain out of

Posted in News | Tagged , and | 4 Comments

The PM is building a wall, and Northern Ireland is going to pay

Theresa May’s long awaited speech on Brexit was notable both for what she did say and, perhaps more conspicuously, for what she did not.

On Northern Ireland specifically, the Prime Minister declared that the maintenance of the Common Travel Area will be an important priority during the negotiation and that the UK will work to deliver a ‘practical solution’ so as to avoid a return to the borders of the past.

The practical solution posited by Mrs. May was subject to the caveat that the integrity of the UK’s immigration system must be protected. This, the Prime Minister suggests, is eminently achievable given that the CTA existed well before 1973 and the UK’s entry into the EEA.

This contrasts with remarks made immediately prior to the Referendum in June, when May claimed it would be “inconceivable” to imagine that there will not be any changes on border arrangements with the Republic of Ireland, if the UK were to pulls out of the EU.

Posted in Op-eds | Tagged and | 24 Comments

Come to the future women MPs weekend!

The Campaign for Gender Balance (CGB) and the Diversity & Talent Support Team are pleased to announce that this year’s Future Women MPs Weekend will be held on Saturday 4 – Sunday 5 March 2017 at the Jurys Inn Hotel in Milton Keynes.

Future Women MPs weekend is an intensive residential training weekend for any aspiring female MPs within the party; whether you are already an approved candidate or are yet to take that initial first step, this is the perfect way to kick start your journey to Westminster. Jo Swinson, Tessa Munt and Jenny Willott all started their successful quests for a seat in Parliament at a FWMPs Weekend, and so could you!

As well as expert advice on your political career you will also receive:

  • Information and advice on all aspects of the process from selection to standing for Parliament
  • Personalised advice and guidance from top party trainers and representatives
  • A chance to ask any burning questions and address any concerns you may have
  • A fantastic opportunity to network and make useful contacts with other aspiring women within the party
Posted in News | Tagged , , and | 6 Comments

Observations of an expat: The hip-thigh bone theory of the world

It is time to explain my hip thigh bone theory of the world.

The theory is based on the 1920s African-American  spiritual “Dem bones, Dem Bones, Dem Dry Bones.”

The ditty in turn was based on a Biblical passage in which a collection of dry bones reassemble themselves   before the astonished eyes of the prophet Ezekiel .

The foot-tapping, hand-clapping spiritual is a roof raiser in evangelical churches around the world. It is also a popular song in young children’s anatomy classes.

But to my mind, Its main value is as a perfect metaphor of how the  rapidly shrinking and interconnected world has become increasingly dependent on its constituent parts (or bones) working together.

Posted in Op-eds | Tagged | 4 Comments

Alistair Carmichael on Question Time tonight

Finally, we have a Lib Dem on Question Time.

Alistair will, I’m sure, seek to highlight the general uselessness of the annexe to the Government led by Jeremy Corbyn.

If it weren’t for Alistair, I’d be tempted not to watch tonight. The smug apologism for Trump that Piers Morgan represents is bad enough, but Chris Grayling and Emily Thornberry can usually be guaranteed to annoy me.

It is …

Posted in News | Tagged and | 6 Comments

Rod Cantrill is the Lib Dem candidate for Cambridgeshire Mayor

Cambridge City Councillor Rod Cantrill has been chosen as the Liberal Democrat candidate for Mayor of Cambridgeshire.

From the Ely Standard:

Cllr Cantrill, who has lived in Cambridgeshire for over 30 years, has a background in finance. He has run his own financial consulting business since 2003 and was first elected as a city councillor in 2004.

In June’s EU referendum he was a key figure in a leading local cross-party Remain campaign working with Labour, Conservative and Green campaigners to fight for what he believed was best for our county and our country.

He said: “Our area has many opportunities for growth

Posted in News | Tagged , and | Leave a comment

May’s “Hard Brexit” causes tensions in previously strong UK-Dutch relationship

Despite all the sugar-coating in her speech, the “Hard Brexit” announced by prime minister May didn’t go down well with Dutch businesses, many of whom have done business with Britain for decades.

The combination of the threats uttered alongside the Hard Brexit option, and a series of recent stories in Dutch newspapers about extradition letters being sent to Dutch housewives by Tory immigration ministers, seriously changed the way many UK-loving Dutch think about being in Britain, and British policy attitudes.

That point was today brought home to me, when I met a friend whose family had been visiting the Lake District every summer for decades. He told me that he didn’t feel as welcome in England as he used to, seeing the way the May government is treating our mixed-married compatriots who also love Britain. He pointed out that May’s “walk away” threat puts British-Dutch couples in complete limbo. 

Posted in Op-eds | Tagged , and | 28 Comments

Rennie says SNP Government must put more into mental health, the police and helping disadvantaged kids in schools

It’s time for the Scottish Parliament to debate the Government’s budget plans for the coming year. It’s particularly interesting this year as the SNP no longer has a majority and must secure the backing, or at least the abstention, of others in order for the budget to pass.

Willie Rennie has written to Derek Mackay, the SNP’s Finance Minister, to set out the changes that the Liberal Democrats wish to see before they could consider supporting the budget.

It will come as no surprise to anyone that he is sticking to the priorities we outlined in our manifesto for the Scottish elections last year – more money for disadvantaged kids in schools as we implemented successfully south of the border, an expansion of mental health services, particularly for young people, and more funding for the Police who are struggling to cope with the SNP’s disastrous centralisation.

It’s quite important that we have all this in mind in everything that we do during this Parliament. We need to think about what we want to achieve and what we will have to say to voters in 2021 about what we have fought for and where we are not prepared to settle for tepid, unambitious half-measures. In the last Parliament, where the SNP had a majority, we still made issues like early years education, colleges, the Police, civil liberties and mental health our own and won significant concessions from the SNP in budget discussions. Now that there is no majority, we need to push for more.

Posted in News | Tagged , , and | 3 Comments

Claire Tyler writes: Breaking through the class ceiling

Too often, success in accessing our top professions is down to the lucky accident of birth. Too often, structural inequalities mean that young children find themselves imprisoned on an inescapable path. By the age of five, there is a clear academic attainment gap between children from rich and poor families. This increases throughout school. The benefits of being born to wealthy parents do not just accrue to the talented – in fact, less-able, better-off kids are 35% more likely to become high earners than bright poor youngsters. The resultant domination of our top professions like medicine, law, finance and the arts by the elite and independently educated is staggering.

The case for social mobility is not just a moral one. It also makes business sense. The Boston Consulting Group (BCG) in 2010 found that failing to improve low levels of social mobility will cost the UK economy up to £140 billion a year by 2050. Some top businesses understand this, and are working hard to widen access.

More must be done to widen access to elite professions; on the part of schools, universities, businesses and the government. This is the conclusion of the All Party Parliamentary Group (APPG) on Social Mobility, of which I am co-Chair, and which released its report this week. Titled ‘The Class Ceiling’, the report is the culmination of a detailed inquiry, with the help of the Sutton Trust, over the last year. The inquiry looked at the causes and extent of the problem, investigated what is currently being done, and recommended tangible policy actions.

Posted in Op-eds | Tagged , and | 10 Comments

Federal Policy Committee Report – 18 January 2017

Happy new Year!  The most recent meeting of the Federal Policy Committee took place on 18th January 2016 in Portcullis House, Westminster.  This was a very well attended meeting indeed, it being the first of a new cycle of Federal Policy Committee meetings.  This committee has a three-year term.

We welcomed a large number of new members the committee.  There had been a substantial change in committee membership following the elections.  They included Elizabeth Jewkes, Alisdair McGregor, Chris White, Paul Tilsley, Qurban Hussain, Christine Chueng, Jim Williams, Sally Burnell, Catherine Royce, David Weston, Susan Juned, Jonny Oates, Tony Greaves, Kamran Hussain and Heather Kidd.  Andrew Wiseman attended to represent the Federal Conference Committee and Richard Cole represent the Association of Liberal Democrat Councillors.

Composition of Federal Policy Committee and Committee Elections

Tim Farron MP remains as the chair of the committee.

There were elections for the post of Vice-Chair.  There were three vacancies; one of them was reserved for a Parliamentarian (the old M.P. Vice-Chair).  The contenders were Duncan Brack, Jeremy Hargreaves and Sarah Ludford and they were all elected without opposition.

Lizzy Jewkes and Alisdair McGregor were appointed to the Policy Equalities Impact Assessment Group.  That group conducts an audit of each policy paper to ensure that the authors have thought through and considered the equalities aspect of their work.

Posted in Op-eds | Tagged and | 31 Comments

Lib Dems announce regional spokespeople on Brexit

The party has announced a team of Brexit spokespeople who will speak for each region of England.

The spokespeople were  briefed in Westminster this afternoon by  Nick Clegg on where May’s speech leaves the fight to protect Britain’s European future.

Nick Clegg  said:

Brexit is going to be a major upheaval for people up and down the country. It is easily the biggest political decision in modern history and the repercussions of the decisions made in the next few years will be felt for a generation.

The pound has already fallen in value and jobs have already migrated overseas. We must have no doubt

Posted in News | Tagged , and | 19 Comments

Victory for Liberal Democrats in fight to strengthen Victims’ Code

The Government has agreed to back Sal Brinton’s calls for a strengthened Victims’ Code following a hard fought campaign by our Party President.

During ping-pong of the Policing and Crime Bill the Government made concessions on the principles of Sal Brinton’s amendments which put the discretionary Victims’ Code on to a statutory footing. The current situation sees thousands of victims let down every day because of inconsistent and unenforced practice by those in the criminal justice system.

The Government has now agreed to a review of support for victims reporting back within six months, including consultation with victims groups and others. It also agreed to strengthen, through legislation, anything necessary for the agencies dealing with victims to ensure they fulfil their duties, are appropriately trained and monitored in the delivery of their support for victims.

Sal Brinton said:

Posted in Op-eds | Tagged , , and | 1 Comment

Obituary: Peter Grender 1936-2017

Peter Grender, Dad, showed tactical genius from an early age.  So determined was he to win the heart of my Mum – Iris, the girl he met at the school dance, that he offered to memorise her phone number for his mate who had spent the evening dancing with her and promptly pretended to forget it. When Iris went out with another boyfriend, Peter would pop round for a regular cuppa with Iris’s Mum, his innate charm won the day!

He was a mix of generosity, wit, creativity, relentless attention to detail but most of all a loyalty and warmth that won and kept him friendships of all ages.

At school, St. Dunstans College Catford, he formed strong friendships that lasted his whole life.  After national service he went into sales and advertising joking that he started at the bottom with sales of laxatives and condoms, so the only way was up.

Posted in Op-eds | Tagged , , and | 8 Comments

Why Theresa May’s speech is good news

Theresa May’s speech today was a mixture of vacuous soundbites and ominous indicators of the direction of travel.  Shorn of the window-dressing, it is clear that she leads a government of the Hard Brexit.  She concluded with a nauseous section suggesting that the country is “coming together” after June’s referendum.  As one wag put it on Twitter, that is like setting a fire, burning the house down and expecting those who queried what you were doing to “come together” in the rebuilding project.  More seriously, by opting for a Hard Brexit, exiting the single market (ironically, an achievement of Margaret Thatcher) and almost certainly the customs union, she is demonstrating no respect for the 16 million people who voted Remain.

So, why do I think the speech is good news? The clue is today’s YouGov poll. This shows that the population currently splits as follows:

39%  – Hard Brexit

25% – Soft Brexit

23% – Remain in the EU after all

13% – Not sure

Pursuing a Soft Brexit would have been risky for May but not as risky as Hard Brexit.  For the first time, she has clearly put herself in backing a position supported only by a minority of voters.  This allows the divided Remain side to unite around opposition to the UK coming out of the single market (with much historic material from Dan Hannan and Boris Johnson to support them!).  It also allows them to peel off those Leavers who wanted to maintain single market access.

Posted in Op-eds | Tagged , , and | 69 Comments

A new propaganda

Very nearly every political movement since the late 18th century has its roots in the enlightenment, from American constitutionalism to the rational imperialism of Napoleon. It is hard to overstate its influence on every strand of modern political thought, from conservatism to socialism to liberalism. All built on this revelation: that facts matter more than faith, and reason is greater than fear.

The fascism of Italy, that spread like wildfire across Europe and then the rest of the world, was not built on the foundations of the enlightenment. It was instead a rejection of the values espoused by it, a direct reaction to reason and humanism. Fascism dictates that acting as one is more important than what is actually true, and that the truth dictated by those in power is supreme to any other, no matter what evidence might say. As Sartre said: “ have chosen hate because hate is a faith to them; at the outset they have chosen to devalue words and reasons.”

I recently finished reading Nothing is True and Everything is Possible by Peter Pomerantsev, a harrowing account of the post-Soviet media under Putin’s regime. He describes how the propaganda under Putin, like that of the Nazi Party and the Italian Fascists before it, works not by espousing a single version of the truth, but by undermining the very concept of truth. It calls into doubt all sources, until the public believes none, and instead sees all truth merely as an act of faith. Evidence is not of intrinsic worth in a such an environment, but is instead perceived to be a rhetorical tool like any other.

Posted in Op-eds | Tagged , , , and | 49 Comments

LibLink: Tim Farron: Whether you are Leave or Remain, Theresa May just betrayed you on Brexit

Tim Farron wrote a long response to Theresa May’s speech yesterday for the Guardian. Here are some of the highlights;

The new Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall, himself commented that May’s words could have come straight from a Ukip party conference speech. Farage and Nuttall might like to convince themselves that the referendum was an endorsement of their nationalist, populist politics, but that is an injustice to most of the British people who voted leave. Pursuing Ukip’s warped vision will not only have severe consequences on our economy, it will also severely damage our standing in the world.

A reckless exit from the

Posted in LibLink | Tagged , , and | 15 Comments
Advert

Recent Comments

  • Katharine Pindar
    @ David Raw. Thanks for your comments in this thread, David. And yes, it's good that we seem now to have a government which the Liberal Democrats can work with,...
  • Katharine Pindar
    No I can't, Peter, but hopefully the government under Andy Burnham can! Are you not persuaded yourself that now your Socialist party can finally be the 'real d...
  • Katharine Pindar
    Peter Martin: as to why we need the USA still to defend Europe, it is surely that we need President Trump to stand up to Putin for Ukraine and promote the end o...
  • Peter Martin
    @ Katharine, " It’s difficult now to see how Keynesian full employment can be fulfilled these days, to generate production of goods and economic grow...
  • Meg Thomas
    Important move. Thanks very much. The sad thing is we know it will fall on stony ground, but it really needs saying...